MSR-H Turn 17

I was there, but not racing. I did hear the angst billowing through the pits about debris induced traction issues at a very critical point of the track.

That being said ...

I understand that a racer has to be able to adapt to either permenant or temprary track conditions. That is a given.

The issue I see here is a terrible lack of communication by the track (or even NASA-Tx) about the permenant or fixed changes. If NASA-Tx knew about it, shame on them for not mentioning it in saturday's driver's meeting. If the track didn't mention it, shame on them.

Friday evening offered an opportunity for driver's to walk the track. So, shame on the drivers for not ENSURING that the track was status quo.

However, the track going cold at 5pm, leaving only about 45 minutes of daylight hindered this effort.

Let's also not lose sight of the fact that none of us are Micheal Schumacher. We're just folks who can muster enough disposable income in order to go racing. Expectations need to be tailored accordingly.

The blame-game, finger pointing can go on for a long time. Lots of blame to spread around

My take on it is simple ... if there is a safer solution, why not use it? Work-arounds will get someone in trouble eventually.

HANS devices, door bars, right side head restraints ... I prefer to not have to count on them, if you know what I mean.

Some people seem to be suggesting here that if a track has a dangerous feature, or makes a change that induces a dangerous feature, that we as drivers should just take note, adapt accordingly, and shut up and race on it?? :?

I'm sorry, but if drivers took that attitude to racing, we'd still be racing in t-shirts, baseball helmets, and with nothing more than a few very flammable hay bales between us and concrete walls! :shock:

Safety is ABSOLUTELY PARAMOUNT in all forms of racing today, and should be doubly so in non-professional grass roots racing such as we are involved in. No one has more influence over safety issues than those who it directly affects - the racers themselves. Of course drivers need to be aware of track conditions and drive accordingly, but as racers, we also have an obligation to bring potentially unsafe circumstances to the attention of track and/or event officials, and conversely, track or event officials have an obligation to address those concerns!

Regardless of the cause, the fact is that 9 or so cars hit a wall and suffered damage in a short space or time at a place on the track where incidents were previously relatively infrequent. Thankfully no one was injured - this time - but many of the drivers involved, or who witnessed this are now voicing concerns about safety - enough concern to not drive the track again unless something changes. Obviously the issue needs to be addressed before the next NASA event there - or the car count is likely to be very small indeed! I think you guys are doing the right thing by raising your concerns with the track and NASA TX.

Has anyone received a response from Mr. Mitchell since yesterday? I'm pretty sure I've made the ignore list, but curious if anyone is still in contact with him.

Obviously, there is a problem with what MSR-H considers "safe" and it's also unfortunate that some were told at the track that it's not a NASA TX problem and if we have an issue with the track, we need to contact them directly.

I only drove this during an hpde session in Todd's car, so when I saw the layout of this turn I was...uhh..pussy footing it there to say the least. Going full tilt in a cmc car, what gear and rpm are you fast guys in?

2nd.

RPM? right foot flat to the floor!

Glenn, I need data from fastguys! :wink: kidding!

Ok, and how much runoff was there before?

go back and watch the 2006 year in review vid. in it there is a shot taken from towards T1 looking back to T17. there you will see a yellow line on the left of the track and down by T17 that line jogs to the left. now the wall covers that line and has no jog.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Al Fernandez

Going full tilt in a cmc car, what gear and rpm are you fast guys in?

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5 to 3 downshift at the entrance.
Apexing in 3rd gear ~3300 rpm
I should have given you a ride while I had the chance.
Too busy hooking another newbie into the series!!! :lol:

-=- Todd

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mitchntx

HANS devices, door bars, right side head restraints ... I prefer to not have to count on them, if you know what I mean.

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Unfortunately I had to count on all three. They all worked and there was no injury except to sheet metal and a bit of my pride.

This whole exercise that is playing out now, in my mind, is more based on principal than anything else.

I've expressed my concerns both directly to Mr. Mitchell as well as to NASA TX. I won't be back to MSR-H until there is a change of some sort that can minimize the "issues" with that corner... period.

(The last comment sounds bitter... I'm not mad, just frustrated) :?


For the record, I sent the emails yesterday and have not heard anything from either party. However, I do really hope that I hear something from NASA TX...

Marshall and all,
Let's stick with our plan of putting together a collective effort, letter on behalf of all of us to NASA Texas.

They will be working with MSRH in the coming weeks and will monitor the SCCA double-nationals. I don't think anything is going to happen before then.

After the SCCA event, we'll present our case via NASA TX to MSRH and see what the outcome is.

Since no-one has taken a stab at a letter, I'll add that to my list of To-Do's for this weekend and sign it on behalf of the group with AI/CMC letterhead and post the draft here before submitting. I'll use this forum for my list of included drivers and if you haven't already requested to be added to the list, say so here.

Look for the draft in the coming days.
Power in numbers....I am AI/CMC.
'mmember? :wink:

-=- Todd

I think the lack of prep on the tires, which resulted in slimy and muddy conditions really made the situation what it is. I mean, nobody hit the wall all of saturday when there were a lot more track sessions. Then sunday nobody hit it all morning until our session. Suddenly every other car is off? Obviously the crap on the track had a huge influence, and was because of little preparation of the tire barriers (such as drainage or wrapping).

All that said, I agree whole heartedly that msr-h mgmt should do whatever they can to make their track more enjoyable for ammateur racers. I wouldnt go as far as not driving there any more though, but thats just me. I know of a lot of turns that are a lot more treacherous (not in tx since I dont know the tracks here! haha) like almost all of Laguna, turn 10 at Sears Point (where both Tony G and I have destroyed cars), the 2nd to last turn at Cal Super Speedway, and on and on, and I still drive those tracks, I just tone it down in those specific turns.

Todd, thanks for taking the lead on a letter to NASA-Tx. I think that has the best chance of leading to action in our favor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Al Fernandez

All that said, I agree whole heartedly that msr-h mgmt should do whatever they can to make their track more enjoyable for ammateur racers. I wouldnt go as far as not driving there any more though, but thats just me. I know of a lot of turns that are a lot more treacherous (not in tx since I dont know the tracks here! haha) like almost all of Laguna, turn 10 at Sears Point (where both Tony G and I have destroyed cars), the 2nd to last turn at Cal Super Speedway, and on and on, and I still drive those tracks, I just tone it down in those specific turns.

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I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. T9 and TWS is a bear as is T3. The bitch at Hallett has snagged it's share of cars and even ricochet at MSR-C has seen each of us going agricultural.

Last year, when all of us first entered the T16/17 complex at Houston saw that wall and gave it tremendous respect. We all saw that the track had moved the wall back far enough to give a driver a little breathing room.

The wall itself is not necessarily the issue. It's the fact that there is a safer configuration that has been used, it's a simple and inexpensive fix and track management is indifferent, at this point.

Racing is inherently dangerous. We all know that and we take that risk. But, like any other reg that comes down the pike that attempts to minimize injury or damage from the risks, tracks have to do the same.

Mid-Ohio didn't leave the culvert alone after the Joey Hand crash. It was reconfigured so that it didn't happen again.

Now I know the world is coming to an end...Mitch and I completely agreeing on something! :lol:

Now, about those roof bars...[/img]

Yes ... get your head out of the sand ... :lol:

BTW, Hallett is a perfect example of a track that cares.

They are adding Air Fences http://www.airfence.com/ to a few different turns to help increase safety.

I personally received an email from Scott and will be making an effort to spread the word.


Here is a thread http://forums.okscca.org/viewtopic.p...30b33bcfc53f7b


Maybe we should send this to MST-Houston. ;-)

JG, it's my understanding that the Airfence is a motorcycle safety device - that is certainly what it was developed for when I first saw it being developed downunder, and their website doesn't indicate anything different today?

I'm not so sure that Hallett would want to have their expensive fence system that is undoubtedly being purchased for motorcycle events torn up by big heavy cars?

Of course, this doesn't change the validity of your opening comment - that Hallett is a track that cares! :)

<<<<<UPDATE ANYONE??>>>>>

Anyone have updated information regarding this issue at MSRH?? At least post something in here to let us that aren't in the "know" what's going on.

I still have not yet heard from either Mr. Mitchell or NASA TX. I'm beginning to get frustrated...

Just sent another email to both parties...

We are waiting until after the SCCA Double National before any decisions are made.

A couple more points to think about with ths discussion are:

1. Speed of the cars through the corner with the wall where it is now and where is was before.

2. The angle of the out-of-control vehicles as they impacted the wall with the wall where it is now and where is was before - i.e. which part of the car took the biggest impact.

I just received the following from Mr. Mitchell. Looks like we "may" not be the only one having issues. However, that is interpretation from his email. YMMV.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Al Mitchell

We appreciate all feed back on the track. We we have many sources of imput over the weeks with Champ Car's sanctioned test over the past six days, the double national this weekend and Daytona Prototypes/ALMS car in next week.

Thanks,

Al

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Waco Racer

We are waiting until after the SCCA Double National before any decisions are made.

A couple more points to think about with ths discussion are:

1. Speed of the cars through the corner with the wall where it is now and where is was before.

2. The angle of the out-of-control vehicles as they impacted the wall with the wall where it is now and where is was before - i.e. which part of the car took the biggest impact.

---

One question or issue would be if the SCCA event has the same conditions as what we had during out event. If the mud pit has dried out, then the likelyhood of seeing what we went through might not happen.

However, if the conditions are dry and there are cars that still smack the wall, then that's even worse.

With CMC18, I caught the really slick part with the rear tires and partially with the fronts. I slid into the tires with the passenger side quarter panel impacting first. Had the wall not been in its current location, no contact would have been made at all. I would have only lost positions.

.02

I received the following from Mr. Mitchell last last night.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Al Mitchell

SCCA raced on it in November and preferred the new configuration. The Forsythe, Newman-Hass, Conquest, Dale Coyne Racing, Rocketsports, Pacific Coast and PKV Champ Car teams tested on it privately in Nov and Dec and definitely like the new configuration better.The Forsythe(3 different trips), Conquest, Derrick Walker(3 different times), Conquest(twice), Gelles(twice), Jensen Motorsports, Newman-Wachs, and US Racetronics Altantics tested privately in Oct, Nov, Dec, and Jan and all prefer the new configuration. Two Ferrari Challenge teams one with 6 cars the other with 4 cars tested privately and never had a issue with turn 17. The Champ Car Atlantic sanctioned test was Fri and Sat with every Atlantic team in the series participating. Most of the 26 cars did between 250 and 300 miles in cold conditions each day and 1 car had wall contact. Every Champ Car team tested today in the rain and not one car had contact with the wall.

The three real issues are 1) It reduces the speed in 17, in either configuration people maximize the width of the track running out against the wall, the new configuration reduces the speed, 2) It reduces the speed of cars entering 1, providing for less excursions off the track, 3) It reduces the angle of the wall to a 90 degree approach opposed to greater than 90 degrees.

In the previous configuration, when there was contact, it was major contact. Putting the driver at a greater risk than necessary. Even if there is more frequent contact with 17 being narrower, it is at reduced speeds, providing safer conditions for the driver and minimizing damage to vehicles.

In either configuration, 95% of contact has been when a car goes off the track between 16 and 17 and pulls directly back on the racing line with no consideration of their fellow drivers. This is exactly what happened at the NASA weekend. This is also the reason, we have no issues when we have professional racing teams testing, even in large numbers like last Fri and Sat. When a driver went off in 16 and 17, they either continued to the pit lane or if they did pull back on the track it was well off line.

All of this being said, we are always endeavoring to enhance the track and do appreciate all feed back. We always analyze events, tests, member days, and illicit feed back to insure that MSRHouston provides the safest feasible track possible.

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Looks like this might be a fact of life to race at Houston. I might just have to eat crow and change my driving style if I want to race more than a few times a year. :(

Looks like we are SOL trying to get the wall moved.

Before I'd race again at this track the following would need to happen.

1. Any driver who goes off between 16 - 17 and pulls back on the racing surface (if the conditions are wet/muddy..etc.) or racing line will be given a DQ for that race.

2. It is stressed to the highest possible degree that we make T17 safer by reducing speeds through it.

3. Have an official close or near that corner to monitor all actions/conditions.

4. If debris is on or near the GDMF T17, throw out the yellow at the flag station before T15/T16/T17. A debris flag is nice, but won't stop passing. Yellow w/Debris flag = priceless

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CMC17

Looks like we are SOL trying to get the wall moved.

Before I'd race again at this track the following would need to happen.

1. Any driver who goes off between 16 - 17 and pulls back on the racing surface (if the conditions are wet/muddy..etc.) or racing line will be given a DQ for that race.

2. It is stressed to the highest possible degree that we make T17 safer by reducing speeds through it.

3. Have an official close or near that corner to monitor all actions/conditions.

4. If debris is on or near the GDMF T17, throw out the yellow at the flag station before T15/T16/T17. A debris flag is nice, but won't stop passing. Yellow w/Debris flag = priceless

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1) so would you apply that to corners 1-15?
2) good sugestion. any ideas? a chicane?
3) adds value to the safety broadcast.
4) see # 3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CMC17

Looks like we are SOL trying to get the wall moved.

Before I'd race again at this track the following would need to happen.

1. Any driver who goes off between 16 - 17 and pulls back on the racing surface (if the conditions are wet/muddy..etc.) or racing line will be given a DQ for that race.

2. It is stressed to the highest possible degree that we make T17 safer by reducing speeds through it.

3. Have an official close or near that corner to monitor all actions/conditions.

4. If debris is on or near the GDMF T17, throw out the yellow at the flag station before T15/T16/T17. A debris flag is nice, but won't stop passing. Yellow w/Debris flag = priceless

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1) so would you apply that to corners 1-15?
2) good sugestion. any ideas? a chicane?
3) adds value to the safety broadcast.
4) see # 3.

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1. Uh, why would it apply to those corners? Nothing to hit except more dirt/mud/grass (think - wall... stationary objects..etc.)
2. Speed limit (lower for GM's)
3. SB is nice if "everyone" has a radio - mandatory? Rules?

My Cheerios didn't taste good at all this morning.

well i'm not placing blame on you for what happened. so dont get defensive, o.k.?
when i saw the debris flag in the straight before 15/16/17, i slowed some and changed my line thru that corner. i gave up alot to you and it made my life hell thru that corner w/ you on my ass. did i get lucky? not sure. but i did make a change. that debris flag had been out for about 4-5 laps before you had your issue.

the S/B is not manditoy. its possible it will be. things like this add value to why if should be. i did not have a radio in my car @ any point durring the weekend. i have all the gear, just not the radios.

I'm not blaming anyone or pointing fingers other than at myself. You changed your line and I subsequently changed mine to get a better run out of T17. Unfortunately, the "debris" spread more than I anticipated causing my rear tire to lose grip and slid the rest of the rear around enough to be a passenger and then contacting the tires.

Yes, I knew where the debris was and it didn't initally cause a problem with my line - even at 10/10ths. I won't go into strategy details, but there's a lesson to be learned and one of those is the track officials might want to take a closer look at that particular corner next time and maybe issue a yellow w/debris flag. Every situation is dynamic.

What really makes me upset is that this was the first time I've ever hit a stationary object and even worse - it wasn't even my car.

Yeah, it's going to take a while to get over it. Might as well ban me now.

nevermind.

no reason to ban you......... yet! :wink:
glad your not offended by what i said.
no reason the officials cant do exactly what your asking them to, take a look. it was an issue for more than one lap. they may or may not have known.

Just my $.02, no disrespect towards anyone.

MSR-H is a business with customers. NASA TX is a business with customers.

I would like to see NASA TX determine the wall configuration they want to run for each event.
A. Pushed back (like last year)
B. Moved up (like this year)
Once NASA TX makes a decision on either A or B, go to MSR-H and tell them this is the track configuration they want to run during their event. I would like to think that Mr. Mitchell, as a businessman, would keep his client(s) (NASA TX) happy and set up the track to their wishes. If this means spending 5 hours on Friday afternoon (before an event) moving a wall back to a previous configuration to satisfy a client, then this should be done.

My issue is the apparent lack of care or concern that Mr. Mitchell gives NASA TX and their racers!!!

I'd even propose for NASA TX to pay Mr. Mitchell for his time. I couldn't see it taking more than an hour to move the tires and wall section back. Two people at $20/hr would put you at $80 to move the wall. Charge NASA TX $300 and increase the entry fee by a few bucks (less than $5).

I personally would gladly pay the difference to have the added safety margin. (Considering I could pay that $5 many times over for what it is taking to fix the car...)

Just an idea to ponder. Clifton, can you respond to acknowledge my idea.

I think it is bullsh!t to pay someone for their time to get "their" facility ready for an event.
Repaving crappy sections of the track, replacing the soap in the restrooms, moving tires and a wall, sweeping up the pit area: these are all things an owner of a facility should do to prepare for an event. :roll:

Mr Mitchell said "...It reduces the speed in 17, in either configuration people maximize the width of the track running out against the wall, the new configuration reduces the speed..."

Perhaps this might apply to champ cars and a very small number of club racers who have no regard for their car or safety, but it certainly did not apply to me, or most of the people I saw racing there - in our group or any other!

I found very little advantage, but lots of potential pain by using all the available track with the old turn 17 config - so I used to track out so that I was parallel with the main wall - which meant that if I did over cook it a little, or lose grip, I had plenty of wiggle room before I hit the wall. With the new configuration, we have lost our wiggle room completely. Any momentary lapse of concentration or change in grip from the previous lap IS going to end up with cars into the wall.

If the config remains as it is now, I still say that NASA TX can and should investigate the possibility of artificially giving us some wiggle room back by changing something at that corner such as a line of cones? (note I said investigate - I don't know for sure if it will work or not, but it is worth considering).

Quote:

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SCCA raced on it in November and preferred the new configuration.

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I'm afraid unless our series has SCCA in it, whatever we say or request will fall on deaf ears.

Yep. SCCA is a part owner, so they get what they want.

Race Director Cowboy hat on:

I am listening very carefully to all of the suggestions made by this group. Some ideas are better, or more feasible, than others. One tricky part about moving the wall is that MSRH doesn’t offer multiple configurations with different rates. Flags and cones are something that NASA Texas will consider for the next event, as well as, mentioning it in the Drivers’ meeting. :oops:

I do like this statement from Mr. Mitchell - "In either configuration, 95% of contact has been when a car goes off the track between 16 and 17 and pulls directly back on the racing line with no consideration of their fellow drivers. This is exactly what happened at the NASA weekend. This is also the reason, we have no issues when we have professional racing teams testing, even in large numbers like last Fri and Sat. When a driver went off in 16 and 17, they either continued to the pit lane or if they did pull back on the track it was well off line." This is something all racers should consider.

I don't like y'all hitting the wall either. Trust me on this one, we ARE looking out for the safety of our racers.




Sideways Cowboy hat on:

p.s. Tire walls are real stubborn about filling out BC reports.

p.p.s. Can you feel the love so close to Valentines day?

I must be just stoopid and inexperienced or something, but unless you have spun to the inside, can someone please explain to me how you can "pull back on track well offline" if you have run off at 16/17?

Yes you can and should stay well off the wall out of 17, but you have to cross the line somewhere if you come back on track, so if you are tracking mud, you are still going to make it slick somewhere in the corner?

I have a solution that should work for everyone inlvolved.
Screw Houston and their rice patties. It is a WIN WIN

I am sure when we are "professional" racers then we will stop hitting their walls. I know when I build a track I will be anxious to see the pros drive really close to my poorly placed walls. It works for NASCAR, why not for a "country club" race car"
It should at least get the spectator count up. I know everyone wants to see the carnage.
This is all still, so ridiculous. I want to look away but I cant!
I dont care about angles and BS, if people are hitting the damn wall then move it. We are lucky that more people were not tangled up at once, and hurt.

This is not city traffic. We are not discussing the difference between a circle and an intersection.
Sure, I like circles because glancing blows are much better than T bones.
This is totally different. They have room to move the wall back and they refuse to do it, based on their "professional" opinions. Never before have ten racers hit the wall in the old placement. Sure it still sucked (terrible engineering)but nothing like it is now.
I might agree if there was one or two hits; BUT TEN? C'mon, are you guys serious. Ten bad drivers who wont ever make the pros?? GIVE ME A BREAK>

<angry>




:twisted:

See the attached letter which was emailed today.
Please remain professional on this matter as it will be much more effective!

-=- Todd

Thanks for doing that Todd... Had a good time today, just wish we could have spend more time watching the races.

I really would have liked to see that race finish out without the T17 incidents, would have been a great finish with those guys swapping position four or five times before the incidents. Very sad.

DD