Like I said ... if you need help getting the beast back together advertise a day when you want "us" to show up and we'll be there for you, Robert.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boudy
Racers helping racers, right?
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Like I said ... if you need help getting the beast back together advertise a day when you want "us" to show up and we'll be there for you, Robert.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boudy
Racers helping racers, right?
Guys, first of all, apologies for having been quiet for so long...I've been travelling a lot for work, and as has been said, this is just a hobby :wink:
On the CMC site there are several good threads that were created when we first launched CMC2. In there, and many places since, we've stated that the goal is to have one CMC class. If we prove to ourselves that it cant be done, or that the cost of doing it is too much to bear, then we'll give up. I doubt either of those will be the case, but I'm a glass is half full kind of guy.
The reality is time marches on, and leaving CMC as CMC was would only ensure a slow and painful death like spec rx7 has enjoyed. What happened to them? They stoped evolving and as new drivers came in they came into other series with newer platforms.
We needed to have a place for the more modern hardware to run, and we just dont have the resources to test on the level that would be needed to bring them in with one fell swoop...hence the plan was hatched to bring them in under their own group (CMC2) and learn what they can/cant do, and try to figure it out.
This is not too different to what happened when we first let the 4th gens in (they werent allowed at one point...who here is ready to say having them now is a bad thing?? Quiet Jeff! :wink: ) When we first allowed the 4th gens there were horror stories of how they'd become class killers. People thought there was no way a fox would compete with the "drastically superior front end geometry" etc. Well, we figured it out pretty much.
So...the goal as of now is to have one CMC class. The timing is likely to be measured in years. One step at a time, with the first being determining for sure just how low can we take a stock LS1 down to and then developing roadmaps for the existing platforms to get up to wherever that goal ends up being.
BUT...rest assured no matter what we wont leave any platform behind, thats just not an option.
I do hold the air time and distance record. :shock:Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
8)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rsmith350
UH OH. Looks like its "ON LIKE DONKEY KONG!"Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelmosty
Thanks for the words of wisdom Charger. I would like to have some feedback from the Left Coast about CMC2 since they have had some decent participation in the class from different platforms. My bet is that TG will make some changes to handicap the LS1 against the mustang since they can't keep up with "Da Man Dave Shotz"
Back to ice cream and beer.
I actually said the same thing and thought the name should be something different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Gunter
Gee - slow, ratty sounding RX7's are nowhere near as cool as V8 Mustangs and Camaros. Nobody runs to the fence to see the RX7's race.
Long Live CMC!!!!!!!!!!!! 8)
So much for keeping them seperate for a few years. One year. :xQuote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
http://www.camaromustangchallenge.co...889&highlight=
Quit your complaining or move to AI!! :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien
I think it would be beneficial to see a list (ASAP) of changes for each platform.
If the Fox's, SN95's, and 3rd gens are going to be upping the power we would all greatly appreciate to know what to buy for this so we can be keeping our eyes open.
AI? No thanks, I'ld rather go run wik ASedan cause I know what road they are heading down. :shock: Didn't see this CMC road 2 years ago.
You see, wik CMC, I can still not get completly out dragged wik my 209hp 180k mile motor. If I show up wik that in 2010, it won't matter how much my driving improves, I still won't be able to keep up unless I fork over some cash.
To someone who is coming into CMC, they can't just get a 3rd gen or Fox, throw in the safety reqs and go racing. Now you will have to buy whatever they allow to get the hp up... and wheels... and ...
Yes, I realize to run up front you have to spend money. I'm sure anyone who goes to nats has a somewhat fresh motor. It's a choice. Spend money run up front. Have used equip, run midpack/rear. Now it's a case of upgrade or die.
[edit]Guess I'm just more ticked at how short the time frame is... one year. I say one year even tho it's only July because I bet it takes awhile for the list of upgrades to come out to the masses. And for someone on a small budget who is just happy to be able to pay gas to GET to events, a year isn't much.[/edit]
I don't think this is going to be that crazy of a change. I am not that educated on the CMC2 rules so this a shoot from the hip.
I see the big changes being HP, brakes, wheels/tires.
For a Fox, getting to 260 hp "should" be $300-500. A set of shorty headers and a camshaft should get you there. Marshall's 1st motor built back in 2004 was basically my exact motor with JBA headers and a Trickflow camshaft. He made 259 hp.
The other main factors that I foresee are brakes and wheels/tires. Brakes might be good for the long-run with better wear and durability but if you can lock-em up now, you'll still lock-em up with bigger brakes.
Testing will tell the difference for wheels and tires. 17's weigh more but have more grip, what will the result be???
I know nothing about 3rd gens and the 305, I just hope your extra motor power is as easy to get.
MM-Differences between cmc/2 would be 17's, and upgraded brakes, and we run a different weight to power ratio. You can figure out the 17's or know what you need to run them. I wouldn't be surprised if the upgraded brakes gets thrown out. They did that for a durability issue with the heavier weight of the CMC2 cars. I don't know of anyone that has upgraded the brakes and if they are really needed. Since 2 will be allowed to come down in weight there will be less of a reason to upgrade brakes. Though there may be some mustangs with bigger brakes from the factory that are racing already??
I think its great that they are letting people know fairly far in advance of the proposed changes. Now its a matter of finding out what the spec parts packages will be to bring the hp up.
MM-you should PM Tony with that information as they probably have a database of stuff they are looking at to decide what to allow.
I ordered more restrictors yesterday and hope to dyno to get some new numbers for the upcoming seasons.
I am just giving you crap! Trust me, I see it the same way you do. What's going to be interesting is that "CMC" is just going to be AI lite with steel panels and no Aero... I would imagine in other regions, they are all going to look alike and probably run the same speeds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien
As for going to NATS with a fresh motor....not here. Same one that went in the car in April of 07 and has seen TONS of track time. Hope it holds together!
I just hope NASA gets with Toyo and tells them to make a SHITLOAD more 275/40/17's because the AI boys so far ain't going to 18's... That's going to be a TON of cars running the same spec tire that goes low on stock mid year all the f'n time! Man I feel like broken record...
I don't understand why CMC and CMC2 can't remain seperate?
I don't buy the argument that the spectators can't tell them apart and its confusing argument. The spectators cant tell CMC and AI apart now. Oh wait - what spectators?
Leave them seperate, the later cars are different and should be classed different. CMC cars may eventually fade away by attrition and then the old CMC guys will build into the newer cars.
Long Live CMC!
You giving out crap?!? Say it ain't so! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
Guess I'm just a guy. My girlfriend just cut her hair short and got highlights... It's all too much to take in for one week... I don't like change.
Rob, TKO is looking pretty good right about now, huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien
Mine did the same thing!! I feel for ya brother!
No doubt. I've got a bone stock 305 sitting on an engine stand waiting to be put in my future CMC racer. I'd like to know what my options are as far as power upgrades so I can see what I'm getting in to.Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelmosty
From my experience, this is one of the things that bugs me the most about the changes. Many of you know I used to race ITS, and we could run a 7" rim and any tire you could squeeze onto it. Any race car is fun to drive, but it turned the cars into little grip buggies, waayyy over tired. Maybe the saving grace here will be the still spec Toyo.Quote:
.... 17's weigh more but have more grip, what will the result be???
One of the things that drew me in to CMC was the somewhat small spec tire. I like the fact that you need to have control on all the pedals and not treat them as simple on off switches. I dono, maybe I need to go look into rally instead....
*edit* I didn't mean for that last comment to sound like an "I'm outta here", it was just a comment to what I enjoy as a driver.
Jeff
This comes at a really bad time for me. My motor is in the shop right now getting freshened up and I just spent a bunch of money trying to keep my third gen as stock as possible. So basically I have to stop everything I'm doing right now except for body work........... :evil:
Damn!! and I just got started again :cry:
A 1.6 roller rocker and maybe a cam may fix my problem.
jb
Don't stop. Forge ahead and come go racing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rsmith350
I've had a few conversations with other racers since Hallett about how competitive and segregated we've become. Maybe there was something to Eric's arguements that we're tearing ourselves apart at the seams.
Newbs were asking experienced racers questions and told to 'go away, you bother me, boy' kind of responses.
We all know winning is a blast. But just competing is where it's at. You don't have to kill the car or the racer next to you to have a shit-load of fun.
Just come out and enjoy racing. getting all hyped and driven to win makes your ego inflate beyond bandwidth capacities. 8)
Hallett was my first weekend on 17s. The 17" wheel/tire package weighs more than the 16" and I could feel the difference exiting the corner. Throttle response just wasn't "crisp".Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirtz
But going back and looking, my best laptime was over 2 seconds faster than last year. That makes me 1 second off the CMC pace. :roll:
This is true to a certain extent. But I can tell you, having raced in Texas with 180hp and then at Hallett with 223hp: if your car doesn't have competitive numbers, there is a very limited amount of fun you can have...Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
-chris
AH HA!! so you're the one who brought the SCCA rules creep to NASA!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirtz
:twisted:
I have a set of 4 KC Daylighters from the Monza rallycar I may sell ya... be be warned, gravel and dirt roads are hell on paint :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Wirtz
Yeah, as hinted in another thread, pretty sad when 3 weeks of prep for a car show and burn out contest with some fireworks draws 1200 times more than a race weekend can.... :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Liebbe
Not to mention that when looking for sponsors to fund this little habit, you have to agree that the most exposure they will get is while on the trailer on the way to the track...guess that's why I don't have the enclosed trailer anymore! :oops:
Guess my dream of being BIGGER than just MFW is fizzling! :lol:
Yup.
You have to ask yourself; how would a Humpy Wheeler promote a bunch like us?
jb
I was ticked off when CMC2 was created....and this just adds fuel to that old fire.
I expected this day to come, but I was not ever looking forward to being AI-lite.
I am lucky in that my car is a simple pull of the resctrictor, so I don't have a complaint as much as the Fox's and 3rd gens do, but I see new wheels and bigger brakes in the future. :evil:
I do, at least 4 times a month.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffburch
For a series marketed as simple and stable, it sure has been a bumpy few years.Quote:
Originally Posted by AllZWay
This is my response posted on National Forum.
***************************************
I personally still object to the move to consolidate CMC and CMC2.
The "low end" cost of running a "near factory" car with parts I had on-hand was one of the main draws for me to go CMC. Reliability and cost effectiveness was a huge factor for me when commiting to CMC over AI. Now you are saying that I will need to upgrade and/or reconsider several systems on my car to deal with the rigors of more horsepower and added weight. This includes engine, transmission, cooling, brakes, tires, wheels, etc. I don't believe it is as simple as putting in a cam and bolting on headers and a throttle body. That may get you the number on the dyno easy enough, but making it live on the track will be different. The later model CMC2 cars were designed from the factory with these new levels in mind and should already be able to run at that level with relative ease. They have the proper engineering and packaging for the aforementioned vehicle systems.
In the end, I still don't see the real need to combine the early cars and the later cars. I've heard some of the arguments from car count to sponsorship considerations. It seems like car count would decrease from the combination by taking away some flexibility in vehicle choice where having both CMC and CMC2 adds flexibility and would increase car count.
It seems like you are forcing those with current CMC cars who are currently happy to spend more money to upgrade to CMC2 for no real reason.
I'll stop rambling now, but I still don't see the need to combine the early and later cars. The two "generations" of cars are different and can and should be treated differently.
Rob Liebbe
Texas Region
1989 Mustang - CMC #1
******************************
LONG LIVE CMC (The original - not the proposal)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllZWay
As a Fox owner this does not bother me at all unless this makes it hard to get a motor to last. I really don't understand why we would need larger brakes or tires? Jay ran his heaver and faster Mach One for three years of DE's with the same brakes we run in CMC without issue.
JJ
Good post, Rob.
That original CMC formula and philosophy is exactly what we are trying to keep in tact.
10 Years ago, the CMC power #'s and parts were consistent with what entry level racers were bringing to convert their street cars.
Today, the power #'s and parts that the contemporary pony cars have are above that of the current CMC level.
The reality of it is, in order to keep the feeder pool of new CMC drivers bringing their street cars to enter the CMC ranks, we need to keep with the times. I noted recently that used car lots now have numerous S197 Mustangs and 4th Gen Camaros on their lots at bargain prices and 3Gen & Fox cars are no longer the norm.
Our challenge will be to evolve with minimal effect to current CMC Fox/3G racers. This change has a huge impact on my car since it is Speed Density. I'm maxed out on power for my ECU. In order for me to make any engine changes, I'll need to convert to Mass Air and find 30 HP to a package which has been rock solid for me for over 10 years of racing (no comments please).
Short term, the change sucks. Long term...and in the bigger picture, it's best for the series as a whole. As far as the timing and the details, treat this as we did for the HANS requirement. The date may slide and the details will continue to be evaluated...but ultimately, it's where we need to head to when the time and details are right.
Todd Covini
Director
Are the newer cars way heavier? If not, why do we need to go with larger brakes and larger wheels and tires. Is there no formula that we could use for power to weight to make a fox car at 230/300 even with a CMC-2 car? Years ago (in the late 70's) I helped a guy that ran 1/4 mile round-d-round. In the faster classes (super stock) you could run a big block or a small block and everything was equaled out using weight.
Jerry
I am just speculating but I would think the heaviest car (LS1 or S197) would be around 3250?
They currently run 280 hp @ 3360. By changing to 260 should definitely lower their weight.
That being said, I would think all weights will need to be re-thought for all platforms.
This works both ways tho. There are still newcomers who find bargain deals on 3Gs and foxes. While it will help those who have 4th gens and S197s, it makes the guys/girls wik the old cars reconsider joining.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Covini
It also makes the older cars that don't get updated obsolete and have no place to run. OK , you can run, but you may go from a front runner to a back marker. That's ok, the housing market has tanked, I guess my CMC car value should go to zero as well. Burch, you better sell your car quick!!!
I still don't like the idea. Why doesn't a similar but different class work. Like GTO and GTU?
I keep hearing that this change is where the class needs to go, but I don't recall hearing the reasons why. I don't want to just drink the KoolAid.
Yup, that old hooptie is leading the points.
I'll do it again next year aswell to punish all for not getting a pool together on it. :wink:
:D
jb
man this really sucks ya'll. I need DETAILS!!! All I can do right now is bodywork and cage stuff!! I'm building an obsolete car!!!!
ok panic over.....I'm good. :shock:
Forgive me for being naive, but that sounds like robbing Peter to pay Paul, cutting off the left hand to spite the right, banging Hilary and voting for Obama ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Covini
Placing a group of racers in a corner and saying "Oh well" is no better than saying sorry, "your car is too new".
Your reality obviously means more than other's reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Covini
From where I stand, newcomers are witnessing significant swings in the rules. History means nothing to those guys, only those still living and worshiping it.
The reality is a series of steps in place for a person to go racing and then a buffet of classes to chose where to race.
The idea of 50 cars in CMC is better than 25 in CMC and 25 in CMC2 is ludicrous. In order to maintain a place to race, CMC has to build NASA and keep NASA afloat. Choices is what the future will hold.
Rock solid in some cases and light as a feather in others ... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Covini
No one has explained how merging the 2 classes is "better'?Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Covini
You brought up the history of CMC and the roots of the series, how is forcing the cornerstone of CMC racing (3G and Fox) into making wholesale changes make the series better or fit into a 10 year old model?
Realize, owning and selling LT1 4th gens puts LAW Motorsports in a prime position. Merging will be great for us. But looking at the big picture through Todd's rose colored glasses, makes me wonder ... if no one is racing anywhere, how is that good?