NASA CCR's and section 27.12

I'll echo some of these guys. I don't want contact nor can I afford contact.

However, as a driver I know I am not perfect and I don't expect those around me to be perfect....(just expect them to try as hard as me to not have contact).

Should a pattern of contact arise by any particular driver, I feel very confident that Todd, Al, Glenn, David and NASA will follow the rules and punish those that aren't capable of racing under the rules.)

For those that can't handle the real facts that contact will eventually bite everyone...there is always DE's and even then contact occasionally happens.

Bryan: Here's another perspective that might help. By design, CMC is very close quarters racing. Hell, if all things were as equal as the intent of the series, we'd all be piled up in every turn trying to get away from the pack. You just don't have the HP or brakes to do what some classes can. You must fight and claw for every inch and the racing is closer and tighter as a result. And yes it is racing, not DE. It is 100% impossible to participate in W2W racing with zero contact. It just can't happen. You're trying to apply threshold braking at 90 mph and take it 5 feet deeper than the guy in front of you while trying to get back on the gas just a little earlier than him and pushing your tires to the very limit of grip on exit. We are 12 inches from each other quite often, that's racing. Our CCR is written to provide the cleanest and safest racing possible. There are guidlines and criteria to offer competitive racing with minimum contact but we make mistakes, miscalculations, emotional corrections, and just plain brain farts. We're human, we're amatures, and we're driving cars as close to the edge of their/our limits as we can. Contact will happen, it's a given.

None of us here wants to hit another car or get hit for that matter. I don't like or condone it but unless one is totally nieve or stupid it has to be understood as a possibility in W2W racing. The checks and balances that are in place to discuss these situations, review them, and issue penalties as appropriate seems to work very well in my opinion. I don't really care if it's more diligently documented as proposed in the CCR quoted above if you're prepared for more documentation, more headaches, and an IRB on salary. My only comment was that 5 points to go see the principle was probably unrealistic when you get a point assigned when somebody else dives in an tags you as I did Al last year. Oops, 3 points for me and 1 for Al... Sorry Al.

I'm really trying to figure out where this is going. Most here can agree as Todd stated, "The system works fine." Will this make CMC a better series for us or will it give a few volunteers so much extra work that they no longer want to participate.

rb

Here's the really funny part about all of this. We go through the same thing. Every. Single. Season.

There's more I'd like to add, but I have to close the laptop and board a plane for ORD>CMH. Have a good night, folks.

I (like Bryan) thought the whole idea of this post was Glenn saying we were not following a part of the CCR?

In my mind in club racing if you have a choice between finishing in front or behind the guy in front of you and the only way to get in front of him is to make a very risky move then you don't do it and you finish behind the guy or pressure him to make a mistake and then get by. To me this is the difference in club racing and pro racing. Am I right or do you make the risky move and hope you don't hit him because this is racing......club or pro? Bryan and I (and maybe others) would like to know the mindset of the guys that race with us on this? There is no right or wrong answer but we would just like to know.


JJ

THAT'S EXACTLY how it's supposed to be.
See http://www.texicanracing.com/nasatx/...s_Sun_Med..wmv

jb

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Originally Posted by ShadowBolt

I (like Bryan) thought the whole idea of this post was Glenn saying we were not following a part of the CCR?

In my mind in club racing if you have a choice between finishing in front or behind the guy in front of you and the only way to get in front of him is to make a very risky move then you don't do it and you finish behind the guy or pressure him to make a mistake and then get by. To me this is the difference in club racing and pro racing. Am I right or do you make the risky move and hope you don't hit him because this is racing......club or pro? Bryan and I (and maybe others) would like to know the mindset of the guys that race with us on this? There is no right or wrong answer but we would just like to know.


JJ

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Interesting points and a points well taken. Humor me for a moment and let me give you my perspective ...

As a driver becomes more experienced and the group becomes more comfortable with said driver, the closer the racing becomes because of a "comfort" zone we all share.

So a "risky" move on someone you have raced against many times and have confidence in their predictability is less of a real "risk" than someone who is new to the group.

It has very little to do with skill, rather confidence.

There are some folks I will race side by side with through turns and some I won't.

Make sense?

Also, realize that part of a 20 minute sprint race is in reality 13-15 minutes of actual, green flag racing. That translates into 6 laps at TWS.

So, if I'm faster than you in a particular corner, I only have 6 or fewer chances to get past you. All the while, the train ahead is getting smaller and smaller.

So, by design, more risks are taken in a 20 minute race than in a 40. This is part of the "factoring" a driver takes into account when in a battle.

Don't misunderstand ... you have every right to the line as it's outlined in the CCR. Just do your own cost/benefit analysis when taking that line, that's all. Because you are right ... this is club racing and in reality, finishing order doesn't mean all that much.

Jerry, you and I are quite similar in that we have similar goals for a given weekend. Just take into account that other's have different goals. Some folks are just more competitive in nature than I am and I assume you as well. Although, I do have my moments ... I guess we all do.

Is it right? Is it wrong?

It's only wrong when contact occurs. Otherwise, it's considered, close, hard racing. It's a fine ... VERY fine line.

I know you are discouraged. But I encourage you to take away something positive from your experiences. Learn from the "mistakes" made, whether yours, theirs or shared. It'll make you a better driver.

And don't get so caught up in lap times or finishing order. If anyone should be discouraged it should be me. I'm running in a class that allows 30 more HP and bigger tires and I'm still 3 seconds off the pace. :x

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Originally Posted by mitchntx

I know you are discouraged. But I encourage you to take away something positive from your experiences. Learn from the "mistakes" made, whether yours, theirs or shared. It'll make you a better driver.

And don't get so caught up in lap times or finishing order. If anyone should be discouraged it should be me. I'm running in a class that allows 30 more HP and bigger tires and I'm still 3 seconds off the pace. :x

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What Mitch said. Only I've got 60 more HP (and I won't get specific on how much more torque because it's too embarrassing) and I'm barely on pace for CMC. It's an AI car. WTF?!?!?!? But I have a freakin' blast every weekend. Even when I spend it crankin' on the car and getting nowhere. Even when I know that I can jump in Martin's BMW and stay on pace with GTS and possibly podium (which I have done), I stick with y'all because it's the funnest. BTW, thanks for the new word, Matt.

Interestingly enough Glenn and I were having a chat just yesterday afternoon where I posed to him my thinking that the leading car has a huge influence on the chances of contact based on how difficult they are making themselves to pass.

You as a driver are deciding (knowingly or not! :lol: ) whether the percentage chance of success of a passing attempt is sufficient to justify the cost of failure. Everyone's tolerance for that percentage will be different. I myself stick to high percentage moves; I am pretty damn certain I'll pull it off if I stick my nose in there. That is also part of the reason you dont find me on the podium very often I suppose. I get behind someone who I'm slightly faster than...but boy they just are driving clean and fast and there are no good opportunities...

I have seen drivers regularly jump on really low percentage moves, basically relying on the other car to move...banking on the fact that the other guy doesnt want contact so he'll give room. These guys find themselves the subject of IRBs all the time, and it doesnt take long before the incremental penalties start coming down...DQs, suspensions, suspended licenses. I've seen 'em all.

Your style is your choice. I think most in here probably consider themselves in the "low risk taker" category...except their definition of "low" might be twisted! :lol: :wink: [/i]

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Originally Posted by mitchntx

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShadowBolt

I (like Bryan) thought the whole idea of this post was Glenn saying we were not following a part of the CCR?

In my mind in club racing if you have a choice between finishing in front or behind the guy in front of you and the only way to get in front of him is to make a very risky move then you don't do it and you finish behind the guy or pressure him to make a mistake and then get by. To me this is the difference in club racing and pro racing. Am I right or do you make the risky move and hope you don't hit him because this is racing......club or pro? Bryan and I (and maybe others) would like to know the mindset of the guys that race with us on this? There is no right or wrong answer but we would just like to know.


JJ

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Because you are right ... this is club racing and in reality, finishing order doesn't mean all that much. :x

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You make some good points Mitch. I have to say I never even thought about the difference between club and pro racing until this post and the deleted one came about.

So where is the currect spreadsheet (showing points that have been given out for contact)?

I thought you said above in this post that we were not doing this right now.
JJ

we are not doing "contact points" yet. we have never done them in the 3+ years i've been involved.