I thought it was a standing Yellow, not waving. You sure about that?
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I thought it was a standing Yellow, not waving. You sure about that?
Great job of framing the issue at hand, Al, and thanks for herding the cats this week to discuss it all.
The other consideration is that #28 was 1 of 7 cars who were also DQ'd for the same offense, in the same location. The other 6 cars were in Group 7, and another series. (Part of the fun of running a combined run group.)
IMO...all 7 cars should be equally penalized for the same infraction. I'll get with Glenn, the other CMC directors and Martin this evening.
-=- Todd
I have video of that race and the yellow was NEVER waving in the five laps I made when I went under the flag stand. It was standing. As soon as Jay gets off his ass and post my vid you will see what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
Jerry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Covini
Equally penalized is an interesting term. Certainly from Clifton's side, it needs to appear that all cars were equally penalized and a DQ for everyone accomplishes that.
From the other side, a DQ is certainly not an equal penalty to everyone.
When Chris and I were running for the championship, a DQ would have lost us the championship and would have been a penalty equal to thousands of dollars. It would have been a very big deal.
On the other hand, if we show up at the next event in that orange thing and get a DQ in say the second Saturday race, who cares? We would miss out on a little chunk of plastic and maybe the opportunity to be in the podium picture if anyone bothers to take one. Is that even a penalty? It wouldn't bother me much and we would be ready to start fresh the next day. Being told we had to start from the back for the next four races or told we had to go home would be penalties. Being DQ'd, irrelevant...
Make sure your equal penalties are "equal."
Richard P.
Really?Quote:
IMO...all 7 cars should be equally penalized for the same infraction.
Driver A is a rookie, driving in his first wheel to wheel race under a provisional. Driver B is a veteran with three years under his belt who has never been penalized for a driving infraction. Driver C is a veteran with three years under his belt who in the last two years has committed multiple flag related infractions.
Should all three drivers receive the same penalty for committing the same infraction?
Waving is what I was told, it wasnt my call to make.
I appreciate the thought and effort by everyone that is involved in looking at this rule. It sounds to me as if I was not the only one that interpeted the rule differently and that different regions handled it differently.
I am interested in seeing video if anyone has it of R2.
JB did send me a photo that showed the yellow flag out, but it is not possible to see it waving or that the Cross flag was out at that time, but I am not disputing my guilt.
I do take the passing under a yellow flag, waving flag or cross flag very serious and deserve a penalty....I just thought that a season ending penalty was too severe. It did cost me points, money, embarrassment, a win already for a first time offense.
I personally would like to see the future of the rule to be some graduating scale that first time offense is X-penalty, second offense in a year of much more severe and even possibly season ending at that point.
The Nasa CCR clearly was not meant as a season ending penalty and my interpetation of the CMC rules were the same, but I do see where it could be looked at differently.
Ultimately, I will accept any penalty that is given and I will continue to finish the season. I initially was very upset and voiced that I might just quit, but as you saw I did go out and race the last race and my emotions are much better in check now and I can't wait until Hallett.
I apologize to everyone for my action on track and creating this controversy. I would also like to apologize to all the corner workers and safety workers for missing the flag.
Subjective and discretion is where we are right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
I mean, Glenn was a rookie and his car was 3 HP over the limit, probably because of weather conditions more than anything else.
Based upon your conjecture, he should have gotten a less severe penalty than if the same scenario happened today.
There is no conjecture there Mitch; I didnt present a conclusion, merely a question.
As far as having a 'grace period' or graduating penalty - isn't that was provisional is for? Maybe we need a longer provisional period if people are veterans and have not seen enough different circumstances?
BTW, it's great that guys like JP are standing tall on this sort of thing...rulez is rulez as they are at the time you compete.
Now if we want to change the rulez afterward and have the next race go under a different set then I am all for that.
Outside of that, and open discussion on the interpretation is healthy as you can't possible document every scenarios (I was a hockey official for 10 years including elite level and OMG how many friggin' scenarios are open to interpretation even in that rule book!)
I do also think that for a first time infraction intent and outcome should be considered in assessing the penalty. After that I think the penalty leans more toward strict interpretation of the rule.
fair enough. The way it's written and reading it aloud, it sounds rhetorical to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez