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there is no push for guys to move to CMC-2. there is motovation to get back to the good old days of a single class. not only for the regional events, but for the National events too. back in 2006, CMC at Nationals had 23 cars. every year since, it has dropped significantly. somewhat due to the split.
you carb guys should have no problem making the chart #2 numbers.
So I would rather see some discussion around what it will take, or what the plans might be for the turd gens in The Deuce
{whoa - when I type it out like that it seems like it was meant to be...}
Anywho:
- Some of us have zero plans to go back to a carb.
- Some of us have significant money tied up in a 3rd gen, and simply "participating" in CMC2 is not good enough. There needs to be a real plan for the cars to be able to be competitive.
I have not been able to go screen the info out there in depth myself as of yet. I'm not aware of a current 3rd gen running -2 with the 305 TPI combo. If there is, some dyno info would be great. Shotz worked the L98 TPI idea and my unofficial summary of his feedback was it did not seem viable as is.
My concerns are;
1) A tweaked 305 may be able to make -2 peak numbers, but I want to see the whole dyno curve. I'm not convinced a 305 can make the same fatness of a powerband as a 350.
Edit: I made a comment about the Fox3 here, but now that I think on it a bit more, Jerry's 302 with the bolt ons seems to go like a bat out of hell, so they maybe don't have so much an issue??
2) The TPI seems to kill the L98 350's potential. So then what? I keep thinking I would like to explore optional EFI intakes (either converted LT1 stuff or an aftermarket piece). Are the directors open to that? It's money, but probably a hell of a lot less money than being in a position to dump my car off (or part it out :( ) and have a build a new deuce car.
3) Related, but what about engine swaps? Pretty hardcore but puts the power thing to bed. Dorks like me would probably go for it. LT1 or hell, even LS1 choked down. Sounds good to me.
Al should remember, but when this whole thing first came up, I offered myself up to be a test mule. Then when the whole deal got very political, I backed out for fear of dumping money to help do R&D and then getting shafted. If there is serious thoughts from the directors on making the 3rd gen cars competitive, I can try to help work it after Eagles Canyon. If the thought is more around "just give them a place to play if they want" then I will likely end up just running CMC until no one is left.
sounds like your taking this as a pretty serious issue. i am too. thus my no BS approach to the thread that got deleted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirtz
optional intakes are on the table, but not ideal due to cost. there was hopes that a cheaper solution could be found. cheaper than an engine swap though.
engine swaps have been kicked around. the LT1/T-56 is a very simple swap and i think should be a viable solution. but be forwarned, you will have to carry the min weight of the 4th gen LT1 or LS1 cars w/ that combo.
there is an alternate table for the TPI cars in CMC-2, but i really dont like the idea. it could work just fine, but i'm not good w/ it yet.
Jeff,Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirtz
Just a little info on the 302 in my car. In R2 Jay and JP ran lap after lap down the front stretch and neither one could pull the other. In R4 I got a start like I usually do and passed three cars. Then I had to drive the turns and I fell back to the rear. Either I need to learn to drive or find another hobby but that is another issue. The way I pulled away from the other -2 cars was not because of power but because I got a great jump. I don't know if running the car at Hallett at 235-240 degrees did some damage but CMC17 got pulled like it's not funny by the 85 and the 18 all weekend. Other than the start of R4 we did not pull anyone anywhere. We have video of Jay getting a really big run (a full car length) on Chuck's 4th gen starting down the front stretch only to watch Chuck pull us by four or five lengths by the braking zone. The 18 also pulled us like we were tied to a post but I know it has not been on the dyno with this new engine but I'm sure Chuck's car has. I know the 85 and the 18 are not cheaters and if the 18 dynoes out okay then we have done some kind of damage to the 17. Another 50 HP would not have helped me this weekend but I can't afford to be down any power at all. Assuming our car and the 85 are at top CMC2 power then the 302 is in trouble against a 350 with like driver skills.
JJ
school me here a little bit but what's wrong with a TPI 305 and a spec cam slightly larger than stock to get 30 rwhp? Is it a computer/injector thing that can't cover the added power?
Torque disproportionatly too high vs hp.
Jb
A higher lift cam with lower duration and correct overlap should fix that easily. This is a simple phone call to crane, comp or other grinder....and you get a custom cam for whatever curve you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffburch
Surely an old factory stock drag guy can figure out how to make power with a stock 305 right?!
Am I oversimplifying this? Would it move the powerband up to high and then you can't take advantage because of a low rev limiter that you can't adjust?
I would think the technology for this has been around since 1992....?
The other problem is the intake. Without an intake swap the cam doesn't work as well as you might think. The LT1 intake would make things a lot nicer for making power without having it blow up the torque curve. The TPI equipped engine makes tractor torque but doesn't make the horsepower above 4800 rpm. My carb'd engine actually pulls nicely to over 5200 and gets stretched to almost 6K at TWS. A cam swap on a carb'd 305 with headers MIGHT make the Table 2 numbers, but like Jeff Wirtz said, I'm more interested in the total area under the curve and not just the peak. The carb'd 350 makes more sense for CMC2.
A cam swap on a carb'd 305 with headers MIGHT make the Table 2 numbers
my old 305 made 292/311... but it was carbed... not the solution JW is looking for tho...
Matt, the problem is intake runner length. GM went out of thier way to to make as much TQ as they could w/ the 305. they did too good of a job. there is no way to get HP where you need it (260) w/out the TQ going sky high. add in a 350 and it gets even more lop sided. best deal is to get rid of the intake and then add a cam that will put the hp/tq where you need it.
i'm also a fan of not having these guys be required to go carb just to do this. it may be a cheaper solution, but its not the right one.