I didnt delete it....

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Originally Posted by mitchntx

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

tell me when you have come to me, Al, or Todd and had 100% proof that a car was cheating and had that happen? i have to ask you to provide me an example of this happening please.

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Again, a nice cop-out.

How can I possibly have 100% proof of ANYTHING illegal unless I built it. Its a no win situation.

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

Trust me i know, i got the same treatment right along w/ you. Honestly, i think you got caught up in the net tossed out for me, but yes, you got the same treatment. The accuser had no evidence that out plates were not of the legal size, but we got checked anyways. So all "Half Cocked Covini" did in that case was what you dont want to see happen now to you. Covini looked like the bad guy. but if the $50 protest was put up, he can stand on the leg of "i have no option here, i am required by the rules to do this." Thats why we ask for the protest at times as its really the proceedure we are suposed to follow.

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Somehow I posted about what happened to me and it turns out to be about you.

But ...

In this scenario, Covini would be the messenger. Any one with any self respect wouldn't shoot the messenger. And if you will read what I wrote, I specifically detail how I felt about my fellow racers after that incident and not the rules or rules enforcement.

So we are looking at ...

Paper work and a check ...
Spread rumors and innuendo ...
Say nothing and complain ...

So who wins?

But, if I come to you and say "I think Eric's wing is too high." and you casually investigate to either prove or disprove it, no one gets hurt.

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sure you can 100% proof.
if a rule requires a white wheel and they got black, i'll trust you when you say "hey, he's got white wheels!". or i measured his wing w/ a tape, and its 10"s too tall. i'll act on that. but when you tell me his straightaway speed looks to be .25 mph to high, i'll smirk and say, pony up the form and money. you have to understand that.

as for our issue involving us and our restricotr plates, it was mearly an attempt to display that as i director, i too have been on the recieving end of things that even you dislike. there was no proof for Todd to do it. your opinon of the group changed as a result of his actions. you want me to do the same based on your "i think he's cheating" - act w/ not proof and have another race feel towards the group the very way you did that day.


Matt - answer the f'ing phone. this is just stupid.

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Originally Posted by mitchntx

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Originally Posted by AI#97

HOLD ON....WAIT A DAMN MINUTE!!! Are mitch and I sort of agreeing on something??????? Hell is cold and pigs are falling from the sky!!! :lol:

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Hell no ... I don;t want to have to sell all my shit ...

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You'll change your mind tomorrow. :P

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Originally Posted by michaelmosty

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Originally Posted by mitchntx

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Originally Posted by AI#97

HOLD ON....WAIT A DAMN MINUTE!!! Are mitch and I sort of agreeing on something??????? Hell is cold and pigs are falling from the sky!!! :lol:

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Hell no ... I don;t want to have to sell all my shit ...

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You'll change your mind tomorrow. :P

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I'm still trying to figure out how to fix MY forsale ad so it doesn't look like Bill Griffen is selling MY car....

Glenn, can you just delete all two or three threads you hosed up so I can post the correct one?

phone hasn't rang all day....don't know what you are talking about bro... Maybe it doesn't want to talk to you either.

Great Matt, like I said, point taken and thanks for your advice. BUT, for you and everyone else, that is not NASA's model. That isnt Glenn re-writting the rules, nor me. That is just not how NASA (at the HQ level, not Shannon) wants to run their show. Rules enforcement yes, but tempered by the situation at hand. NASA is not the SCCA, but running it with two hours of tech after every race is exactly what that would mean. We're just not going to go there. Full stop. Period. End of story. Aint going to happen. We will continue to make reasonable efforts to ensure rules compliance, we will make allowances to help the new guys get into the program, and we will not dedicate half of your race weekend to going through tech inspections.

By the way Matt, I dont feel "hurt" by you, or anyone else challenging anything I say, especially because I have never shown you (or anyone else that I know of) any favoritism. Why havent you mailed back your Nationals trophy and any other contingency awards? After all, you were not black flagged even though your car did not have a functioning tail light. Sounds to me like wishy washy rules enforcement of exactly the kind you should be ashamed to take advantage of. It wasnt done because we like you. You werent called in because it would really really suck to invest all that time and effort to have the racer's results ruined by such a stupid thing. Its not endangering anyone, nobody was right on your ass...let him keep going.

Mitch...I'm confused...you're with Matt on this enforcement thing, but the one time enforcement was pressed upon you it upset you? I dont understand the full story here. Also, you commented how much you like running in the SE...how long did your car spend in post race tech there?

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Originally Posted by AI#97

I am STILL of the opinion that Strict enforcement won't change the fun factor or car count one bit. I do know the changes I propose will increase it by at least one! ;)

Have a nice day Glenn and watch for earthquakes!

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You wouldn't think so, but it just makes it a little more of a pain. Example, August at Mid-Ohio. They pull the top two to dyno. Alright! Sweet, free dyno time!... well, it's free but you need to stand out there in sun with high humidity and temps just short of 90* while they drive it up, strap it down, make the three pulls. Oh wait, that was for the guy who won, now do it all over again for the next car. That's after a 40 minute race where you sweat completely through your firesuit and all you want is to go put on a pair of dry underwear, sit in the shade, and drink a couple bottles of water.

All that to find out the car was 18RWHP under the limit because it's so hot out.

http://www.ploader.net/files/fae79a7...f98af58341.jpg

PS- Not my golf cart. :lol:

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Originally Posted by Al Fernandez

Mitch...I'm confused...you're with Matt on this enforcement thing, but the one time enforcement was pressed upon you it upset you? I dont understand the full story here. Also, you commented how much you like running in the SE...how long did your car spend in post race tech there?

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Glenn and I just spent a LONG time on the phone about this.

Let me try and explain better ...

At NPR my restrictor plate was removed, checked and then sealed to the motor based upon an accusation. Was there paper work or a check written? I haven't a clue. I don't even know who levied the accusation and it doesn't matter.

Had the messenger (either Todd or another racer) come and said I think your restrictor is too big, can I confirm it by the number on your dyno sheet and the number imprinted on the plate?

And did you buy the plates from a known vendor or did you make them yourself.

The visual documentation should have been plenty of evidence that I was 100% legal.

Granted, had I said I made them myself, that could have opened up even more questions.

Because I was naive, thinking this was all a gentleman's group, I was disappointed that my integrity was called into question and required a "tear down" to prove I wasn't cheating.

The number on the plate matching the number on the dyno sheet wasn't good enough. I was guilty till I could prove otherwise.

All of a sudden, it hit me like a ton of bricks that if I was being accused of cheating, me, the FNG, then that must be the way this group rolls. So I had better watch my back and be suspicious of any one snooping around my car. And to a degree, I still am today.

And its why I don't hang around other racer's cars unless invited.

It shouldn't be that way. What I think is nirvana is a director or any racer coming up to me and asking pointed questions about my legality and taking my word as truth and fact. I have nothing to hide, but the reality is its better to play the cards close to the chest, just to be safe.

Does that clarify?

This is at a regional level. The stakes are much higher at a national level.


Edit: Sorry ... glossed over the Tech question

It was the RM region and I spent about as much time in pre-Tech as we do here.

Post race inspection was very loose for the AI/CMC run group. But the season was already wrapped up.

The 944 guys were different as I recall because there was a close points battle.

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Originally Posted by Al Fernandez

Great Matt, like I said, point taken and thanks for your advice. BUT, for you and everyone else, that is not NASA's model. That isnt Glenn re-writting the rules, nor me. That is just not how NASA (at the HQ level, not Shannon) wants to run their show. Rules enforcement yes, but tempered by the situation at hand. NASA is not the SCCA, but running it with two hours of tech after every race is exactly what that would mean. We're just not going to go there. Full stop. Period. End of story. Aint going to happen. We will continue to make reasonable efforts to ensure rules compliance, we will make allowances to help the new guys get into the program, and we will not dedicate half of your race weekend to going through tech inspections.

By the way Matt, I dont feel "hurt" by you, or anyone else challenging anything I say, especially because I have never shown you (or anyone else that I know of) any favoritism. Why havent you mailed back your Nationals trophy and any other contingency awards? After all, you were not black flagged even though your car did not have a functioning tail light. Sounds to me like wishy washy rules enforcement of exactly the kind you should be ashamed to take advantage of. It wasnt done because we like you. You werent called in because it would really really suck to invest all that time and effort to have the racer's results ruined by such a stupid thing. Its not endangering anyone, nobody was right on your ass...let him keep going.

Mitch...I'm confused...you're with Matt on this enforcement thing, but the one time enforcement was pressed upon you it upset you? I dont understand the full story here. Also, you commented how much you like running in the SE...how long did your car spend in post race tech there?

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Hmmm, can't seem to find my electronic copy of the 2009 AI rules as the 2010 rules are now posted only....but I distinctly remember there being a specific rule stating "the car must START the race with one operating tail light"...never mentions anything about finishing with it and I've actually seen cars with switches to turn them off during the race. Since nobody was verifying brake light operation in grid, or have ever defined when the race "starts" as taking the green flag or whether it is when the clock starts, ie, cars rolling out of grid, as it pertains to this rule...., something about no leg to stand on comes to mind....?

Actually can't find anything in the 2010 AI rules regarding it and here is what the 2010 CCR states.

15.15 Lights
All non-formula cars must have at least one (1) operating red brake light visible from the rear of the car, unless otherwise stated as optional (or prohibited) by the specific class rules. All formula cars should have a red tail light. All cars must have at least one functioning red taillight, red brake light, and adequate headlights when competing in night races. Except during night races, all lights must be covered with tape. Brake
lights shall not be covered with tape or have their function altered or purposely hindered in any way.
All brake lights shall only be activated by a switch, which indicates the application of the braking system. Brake light switches and activation systems shall function so as to indicate the moment that the brake pedal engages the brakes. No adjustment to allow for early signals, false signals, or late signals of braking is permitted, unless superseded
by the class rules. Additionally, this rule applies to all vehicles that utilize brake lights in a class where brake lights are optional.

Pretty sure I would have had a defensible position for them failing during the race. However, had I been DQ'd for a mistake or rules enfraction, I might not have been happy about it, but it's my fault for the mistake and I would have taken my lumps. Only way he could have gotten me was under 5.2 of the 2010 rules...won't bore you with that one.



As for NASA's "intent" "tempered by the situation at hand"....never saw that in the rules anywhere. Probably not what the Likes of Dean Martin, Ross Murray or Pat Lindsay expected when they arrive at an event, national or regional. Probably not what someone expects when they buy a car and meet us AFTER they show up to an event having only read the rules posted on the national site either.

Just points to ponder about the flaws in the "plan".....

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Originally Posted by TJ Bain

http://www.ploader.net/files/fae79a7...f98af58341.jpg

PS- Not my golf cart. :lol:

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What about the hood ornament? :shock:

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Originally Posted by TJ Bain

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Originally Posted by AI#97

I am STILL of the opinion that Strict enforcement won't change the fun factor or car count one bit. I do know the changes I propose will increase it by at least one! ;)

Have a nice day Glenn and watch for earthquakes!

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You wouldn't think so, but it just makes it a little more of a pain. Example, August at Mid-Ohio. They pull the top two to dyno. Alright! Sweet, free dyno time!... well, it's free but you need to stand out there in sun with high humidity and temps just short of 90* while they drive it up, strap it down, make the three pulls. Oh wait, that was for the guy who won, now do it all over again for the next car. That's after a 40 minute race where you sweat completely through your firesuit and all you want is to go put on a pair of dry underwear, sit in the shade, and drink a couple bottles of water.

All that to find out the car was 18RWHP under the limit because it's so hot out.

http://www.ploader.net/files/fae79a7...f98af58341.jpg

PS- Not my golf cart. :lol:

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have you been to a race in Texas in August?! ;) Just tell me that you remembered DeSalvo's mistake of shutting the car off while waiting for the dyno! ;)

i'm pretty sure Matt, that your for sale thread is in the state it was before i came along. Mitch and Mike can be asked to delete those posts they made, if you want to ask them.
G/L w/ the sale.