Double Yellow - Future Speeds Behind the 88/39

tl;dr - Expect the 88/39 to be going much slower under double yellow in the future


Not an unavoidable accident, but a racing incident to be learned from. No one was hurt but there was nearly significant out of class contact and
two cars were needlessly damaged.

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Originally Posted by NASA CCR

19.3.6 Double Yellow Flags Categories:
Command; Global.
Description: Two (2) solid motionless yellow flags, displayed at every manned flag station around the course.
Uses: Passing is prohibited. This is used to indicate “a full course yellow.” this means that there might be a problem somewhere on the track. Drivers are not required to significantly slow their vehicles; however, they should be prepared to encounter a “local yellow flag” situation and/or a pace car (or a very slow-moving pack behind the pace car). The display of double yellow flags does not guarantee the appearance of a pace car. It is a command that passing is prohibited until the pace car has pulled off the course (if applicable) and the driver has passed the next manned flag station that is not displaying any yellow flag(s). Reference pace car[ref 19.4.1], [ref 20.11], and [ref 20.12.1]

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F21ScRtK2kk
Pace Car at pit out at approximately 19:15
On board cresting hill between 1 and 2 behind the #32 CMC at 19:29 - roughly the location of the yellow AMCM car immediately before contact
On board cresting hill between 1 and 2, look at the tire marks under the #32 CMC at 21:04 - impact marks
On board between 1 and 2 #88 CMC track right at 21:05 - resting point of the #88 CMC

What I remember is seeing the AMCM into the trees at T2, as several AMCM cars had recently passed position racing CMC cars and we were fairly close into T2. I saw the yellow flag go up in T2 and fully expected ongoing yellow flag and an EV to be there next time by. Next time by, I believe waving yellow and, as expected, the EV was in the inside of T2 perparing to pull the AMCM car out.

For the balance of the lap I was managing the distance between myself and the #55 CMC which ahead of a yellow AMCM car. We were every bit of 7-8ths pace on that lap. As I crested the hill I saw the yellow AMCM car closer than I expected and without brake lights, so I believed it to be moving. It was, but closer to 30mph than the previous lap of 70-80mph. I quickly realized the closing speed was VERY high, I moved left to avoid the out of class car, recognized the "conga line" of cars into T2, knew there was no way I would not pass the yellow AMCM car under double yellow, when the incident occurred.

I had zero idea there was a Pace Car on track.

Going forward expect that under double yellow I will be driving much slower than many of you may choose, especially at tracks with more limited sight lines. I share at least 50% of the fault because there was nothing prohibiting me from slowing down to a speed that would have allowed me to make a better defensive decision upon cresting the hill between 1 and 2.

There are already enough things, that I knowingly and willingly accept, to injure me doing this that I can take this one off the list.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fbody383

tl;dr - Expect the 88/39 to be going much slower under double yellow in the future


Not an unavoidable accident, but a racing incident to be learned from. No one was hurt but there was nearly significant out of class contact and
two cars were needlessly damaged.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F21ScRtK2kk
Pace Car at pit out at approximately 19:15
On board cresting hill between 1 and 2 behind the #32 CMC at 19:29 - roughly the location of the yellow AMCM car immediately before contact
On board cresting hill between 1 and 2, look at the tire marks under the #32 CMC at 21:04 - impact marks
On board between 1 and 2 #88 CMC track right at 21:05 - resting point of the #88 CMC

What I remember is seeing the AMCM into the trees at T2, as several AMCM cars had recently passed position racing CMC cars and we were fairly close into T2. I saw the yellow flag go up in T2 and fully expected ongoing yellow flag and an EV to be there next time by. Next time by, I believe waving yellow and, as expected, the EV was in the inside of T2 perparing to pull the AMCM car out.

For the balance of the lap I was managing the distance between myself and the #55 CMC which ahead of a yellow AMCM car. We were every bit of 7-8ths pace on that lap. As I crested the hill I saw the yellow AMCM car closer than I expected and without brake lights, so I believed it to be moving. It was, but closer to 30mph than the previous lap of 70-80mph. I quickly realized the closing speed was VERY high, I moved left to avoid the out of class car, recognized the "conga line" of cars into T2, knew there was no way I would not pass the yellow AMCM car under double yellow, when the incident occurred.

I had zero idea there was a Pace Car on track.

Going forward expect that under double yellow I will be driving much slower than many of you may choose, especially at tracks with more limited sight lines. I share at least 50% of the fault because there was nothing prohibiting me from slowing down to a speed that would have allowed me to make a better defensive decision upon cresting the hill between 1 and 2.

There are already enough things, that I knowingly and willingly accept, to injure me doing this that I can take this one off the list.

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Could not have happened at a worse place. Anywhere else on the track and this does not happen. If there had not been a pace car this would not have happened but the "pace" would have remained too high in my opinion for the EV's to be safe. Strange how quiet everyone is on this subject. As I said in another post I have worried about this very thing for years but not one person has agreed with me. Oh well I was right as shown by the evidence even if you don't agree that we should slow down at least 50% under double yellow. On Friday at the start of the first test and tune session on the out-lap I came over the same hill on the far left side of the track under a full course caution warming my tires at 50% only to find a stalled car parked on the track. I came very close to hitting that car.

JJ

David,
Great breakdown of the incident from your prospective. From control, it was a mutual, albeit very quick decision to send Dave (Colorado region dude) out in the pace car due to the location of Daniel's car and the fact he was buried so deep in the tires the corner couldn't easily assess his physical condition. As we didn't know if we needed to send an ambulance the most prudent thing to do was to throw the double yellow followed by a pace car.

This is a very good example of people (88/39 in this case) driving a tad too fast during a double yellow.

To add an example to a hypothetical situation... what if this same issue happened but someone also broke on the exit to the bitch and was mid-track at the crest of the hill. If two people were "racing" the double yellow assuming the only double yellow incident was Daniels #34 AMCM car in the tire wall at T2 they would be sorely mistaken as well as put another drive and emergency crew in danger.

Everyone needs to remember that fires happen and we have had more red flags this season than I saw in my 13 years of racing and the last 5 years of not racing and being a RD. If that car in the middle of the track at the exit of the bitch was on fire and the driver was getting out of the car to save his own life, what happens when two cars come by at 7-8 tenths?? I certainly wouldn't want to deal with the outcome of that situation (hopefully I never will).

For everyone's awareness, Brian was given a DQ and 1 race suspension for the incident with Dave. He will be spending his suspension in control (Brian's idea, not mine) so he can see what we deal with during a race. That will be standard protocol for my race groups going forward in the event suspensions are handed out.
Fingers crossed I don't have many "guests" in the future.


We can all learn from this and I'd like to leave you with a quote that's on my wall at work:

"It's not about being better than someone else. It's about being better than you were the day before".
Let's get to tomorrow so we can all be better!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by marshall_mosty

As we didn't know if we needed to send an ambulance the most prudent thing to do was to throw the double yellow followed by a pace car.

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The more true this is, the more prudent a red flag would be.

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Originally Posted by marshall_mosty

To add an example to a hypothetical situation... what if this same issue happened but someone also broke on the exit to the bitch and was mid-track at the crest of the hill. If two people were "racing" the double yellow assuming the only double yellow incident was Daniels #34 AMCM car in the tire wall at T2 they would be sorely mistaken as well as put another drive and emergency crew in danger.

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There's already an answer for that, and arguably in that example that car is visible before and after a braking zone.

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Originally Posted by NASA CCR

19.3.5 Yellow Flag - Waving
Categories: Command; Advisory; Local

Description: A solid waving yellow flag, displayed at a flag station(s) found anywhere around the course.
Uses: This is used locally, to advise drivers that there is extreme danger in the immediate area. Command: Drivers shall SIGNIFICANTLY SLOW THEIR VEHICLES in preparation for any necessary evasive maneuvers or coming to a complete stop to avoid a collision with a potential hazard. NO PASSING is permitted, until completely past the incident, or until past the next manned flag station that is not displaying any Yellow Flag(s), whichever comes first. [Note: If this flag is displayed to indicate a hazard on, or near the course, it maybe rescinded after two (2) laps even if the hazard remains.]

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Arguably then in our event, the flag station track left before the hill should have had an AGGRESSIVELY waving yellow flag. Probably good to do a flag review at a driver's meeting and understand how a track throws them.

Again, I'm not upset with any racer, any RD, or NASA; just making it clear what I'm doing going forward. It could be the mixed class folks that will need a refresher if I'm splitting their field.

Ya know I didn't notice the flag station at the top of the hill in R1/R2. I easily could have been roped into the DQ situation from R2 under different circumstances. It may be prudent to foot stomp that flag station's existence and its importance for Hallett events. I realize that's not a big picture solution, but could help out from the get go at least at Hallett. Those aren't conditions you'll find at every track.

I think my engine bottom end blew out for a reason during test n tune, so I wouldnt have been the cause of this incident (could have easily been me). Glad everyone was ok.

Can someone narrate start to finish and show video of exactly what happened maybe from #88 and from #39? How was Brian involved and why was he suspended vs Dave? I am piecing it all together but there are missing pieces here. Trying to learn from this so this isn't me in the future plowing into you guys.

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Originally Posted by 64GunPilot

I think my engine bottom end blew out for a reason during test n tune, so I wouldnt have been the cause of this incident (could have easily been me). Glad everyone was ok.

Can someone narrate start to finish and show video of exactly what happened maybe from #88 and from #39? How was Brian involved and why was he suspended vs Dave? I am piecing it all together but there are missing pieces here. Trying to learn from this so this isn't me in the future plowing into you guys.

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Dylan,
From the DQ/Suspension prospective, Brian was DQ'd and Suspended for at fault contact with damage during a double yellow. Since he hit Dave, he was at fault. As the RD, I have the ability to penalize both of the in addition to what was done for overdriving the double yellow but what they are having to sort out with car damage was penalty enough in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by marshall_mosty

Dylan,
From the DQ/Suspension prospective, Brian was DQ'd and Suspended for at fault contact with damage during a double yellow. Since he hit Dave, he was at fault. As the RD, I have the ability to penalize both of the in addition to what was done for overdriving the double yellow but what they are having to sort out with car damage was penalty enough in my eyes.

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Ok so under a double yellow, Dave and Brian one behind the other crested the hill WOT and saw a line of slow cars and slammed on the brakes passing some and then Dave getting rear ended by Brian? Was there any other contact with other cars in that sequence of events?

Is the damage enough to buff out with some dent pullers? Or is major frame bending repairs required?

What about Daniel, on the lap before, how did he end up in the tire wall? (Pure curiosity).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 64GunPilot

Can someone narrate start to finish and show video of exactly what happened maybe from #88 and from #39? How was Brian involved and why was he suspended vs Dave? I am piecing it all together but there are missing pieces here.

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I don't have video from my car which is the RED/WHT/BLU 88 (my "preferred" number is 39, we just haven't relabled the car). We found both battery cables loose at the battery and think that even though the camera turned on in grid, once I restarted the car there was enough fluctuation to kill the camera.

From the video that was posted, imagine you are driving the camera car and at 19:29, you crest the hill and the car in front of you is only doing 20-30mph, versus the 80-90 of the last lap. Pretty much what I saw - a car, no brake lights on, realized it was going much slower than I was, and initiate evasive action.

Part of my observation is that the flag station track left at the top of the hill, say 19:26 in the video could have had a waving yellow.

Does that help?

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Originally Posted by Fbody383

Part of my observation is that the flag station track left at the top of the hill, say 19:26 in the video could have had a waving yellow.

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Concur with that. After getting DQ'd earlier in the weekend for a waving yellow at that corner station I was sure to check it every lap. I also came over the hill to find a line of seemingly stopped cars on the other side, luckily I had enough space to slow down. Having the pack essentially stopped on the other side of the hill seems like a good time for a waving yellow (in hindsight at least).

I don't think we would have had this issue as almost any of our other tracks, blind sections usually aren't on a fast straight away.

- Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fbody383

I don't have video from my car which is the RED/WHT/BLU 88 (my "preferred" number is 39, we just haven't relabled the car). We found both battery cables loose at the battery and think that even though the camera turned on in grid, once I restarted the car there was enough fluctuation to kill the camera.

From the video that was posted, imagine you are driving the camera car and at 19:29, you crest the hill and the car in front of you is only doing 20-30mph, versus the 80-90 of the last lap. Pretty much what I saw - a car, no brake lights on, realized it was going much slower than I was, and initiate evasive action.

Part of my observation is that the flag station track left at the top of the hill, say 19:26 in the video could have had a waving yellow.

Does that help?

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I understand what happened now. Thanks for explaining in simple terms a guy like me can understand.

How bad was the damage?

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Originally Posted by 64GunPilot

How bad was the damage?

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Ish.

We cut the outer panel of the quarter off this week. The door opens and closes well. It popped the glass loose from the rear hatch. We'll have to straighten the quarter/door opening panel, pull the rear panel corner a little, and probably porta-power the lower/inner part of the quarter behind the bumper cover where the T-top hole is. We just happen to have a right side rocker/quarter that hadn't made it to recycle yet.

I think less of an effort than the radiator core support and strut tower replacement from the last work.