Reports From Performance Racing Industry Show 2008!

I have already been here for one day attending a Stack Tech Agent Conference. Really nothing to report from this, but if you are looking for precise, accurate, and reliable data acq, I can prepare a quote for you!

HANS- They have finally released a Quick Disconnect Sliding Tether assembly!!! It will be shipping in late January and will be in the neighborhood of $110. It is really cool, the "D" ring portion of the QD is part of the helmet anchor and is bolted to the helmet. Ths also eliminates searching for the pull cables that were further behind you. They have also lowered their price on the basic device to $645 for a sport model that has tethers attached to the helmet with screws. The device will then have to be unbolted from the helmet.

Toyo- I talked extensively with a tire engineer/guru about R888 and RA1s. The deal is that the setups will be completly different (we already new this) The R888 is more sensitive to temperature and a little less to pressure. Look for about 170-180 degrees of temp. More than that will cause the tire to fall off. To achieve this your pressure will have to be near 37 to 41 PSI. The R888 has a stiffer sidewall than the RA1. It will give the car a different feel. So, be ready for that. The Toyo rep did recommend shaving the tire for an ultimate quick lap time. He told me that the tire falling off is because of overheating of the tire. Apparently, this is easy to do with the R888. I will strongly suggest testing the tire prior to the first race weekend... For more info email or call me.

These are the highlights of the information I learned from the show today.

Thank you all very much for the support during 2008!

BTW, I spent some time with the 2009 Koni GS Camaro, It is a VERY cool car, it will be very nice to see the car run head to head with the Boy Racer.

Thanks AJ!! nice update on the R888.

Scrubs or fresh shaved?

At that pressure, I would think scrubs would be the ticket.

Thanks for the report AJ!

Scrubs or Shaved?

Well, that really is the question... The tire manufacturer will say that it performs the same as long and the temperature does not exceed 180 degree F. So, it will be up to the user to decide the right way to go. The rep did not answer my direct question of wether the tire needed to be shaved or not. He also did not answer directly if the tire will fall off quicker when shaved. He did state that a shaved tire is quicker than a full tread.

The rep did tell me that the tire will not need to be heat cycled to increase life, like is done with Hoosiers. It will be interesting to test the hardness of the tire during the life of a full tread.

Bottom line is try to tune the tire to opperate in the 170 to 180 range. Keep the temp spread between 10 degrees form outer to inner. This is true rather it is stickers, scrubs, or shaved.

I am working on a tech seminar for late Jan... The Toyo guru will be in TX around that time. I know there is a race around that time but I am working on it...

WHY would a tire manufacturer build a crappier tire as a successor.

Thanks for the tech info AJ, it totallly supports my thoughts about the tire and the first hand accounts of people who have run them saying they "walk" in the corners.

I am guessing our track records are going to hold for a while! :?

I am tending to agree.

The ONLY adjustment CMC has in the rear is tire pressure. It appears the tire bill is going up as well as lap times.

Do not throw Toyo under the bus until a good setup has been found with the car and it has been developed on the car. It WILL take some time, hopefully the information I have learned and shared will help speed the process for all.

Schroth- They have a center net version made out of polyester for $95.00. It is SFI approved and a 4 point attachment. There is a rachet to tension the forward mount as well as three points of attachment on the rear. They also have a new Enduro belt produced for quick driver changes aimed a the professional level market.

PFC- PFC is extremely keen to produce a AI and CMC-2 brake kits. These will be complete with the smooth face rotor and a forged monobloc caliper. The price will be near $2400/axle. I need to gauge interest...

Lots of other cool little items that can help accelerate your tuning and car setup. I have found a cheap infared tire temperature monitor system with display or ready for data acq. logging ($299).

I also am working with a shock manufacturer to help change the shock valving with the new R888... Controling the temp of the tire will be the key and the loading of the tire will need to be inpart controlled by the shocks.

Last day is tomorrow, but I have seen most of the show. The real high points are the new HANS anchors and lower prices. Please give me some feed back on the brake systems. I need to gauge interest for a true proper race system at a reasonable cost.

Thanks
AJ

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Originally Posted by AJ@PST

PFC- PFC is extremely keen to produce a AI and CMC-2 brake kits. These will be complete with the smooth face rotor and a forged monobloc caliper. The price will be near $2400/axle. I need to gauge interest...AJ

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The recently released CMC rules limit the calipers to $600 each. I'm not smart enough to know what that actually means in the real world where people buy "kits" but I'm guessing at $2400 an axle, this kit wouldn't fly. If it did, I'm guessing the market would be really small.

For AI, I would pay the price premium (if I had money, which I don't) over say a StopTech kit if it was a comparable level kit without the track deficiencies from the StopTech being a streetable setup. For many people, though, it might be a hard sell and again a pretty small market.


Richard P.

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Originally Posted by RichardP

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AJ@PST

PFC- PFC is extremely keen to produce a AI and CMC-2 brake kits. These will be complete with the smooth face rotor and a forged monobloc caliper. The price will be near $2400/axle. I need to gauge interest...AJ

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The recently released CMC rules limit the calipers to $600 each. I'm not smart enough to know what that actually means in the real world where people buy "kits" but I'm guessing at $2400 an axle, this kit wouldn't fly. If it did, I'm guessing the market would be really small.

For AI, I would pay the price premium (if I had money, which I don't) over say a StopTech kit if it was a comparable level kit without the track deficiencies from the StopTech being a streetable setup. For many people, though, it might be a hard sell and again a pretty small market.


Richard P.

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Thanks Richard,
I was unaware of the cost rule. If it only pertains to calipers then I believe that I can come in under the rule. These new PFC calipers are being done in such massive quantities that they can offer a 4-piston 2-peice caliper for $513.97-Retail (Still Made-in-the-USA!!). This is a race caliper that will be non dust booted and extremely stiff. I was talking with the big whigs at PFC today and the $2400 number was thrown out. So, that will be the price ceiling. The idea is to give you guys a reason to not upgrade to a StopTech or Wilwood setup... There can be zoomier systems built for AI and beyond. The tirst step is getting PFC to produce a caliper bracket and rotor hat. Then the rest is plug and play!

The question is do you spend money for upgraded brake system components or continue to spend money replacing factory type adaptations? If there is a need, desire, and market, I can get it done, manufacturers are looking for projects.

i'm sure AJ's price posted was for a kit w/ rotors and brakets ect. i'll ping the directors about cleaning up the rule to specify that.

I think I am still going to be peeved with Toyo...especially if they make me spend money on shocks/springs etc....because they built a crappy tire. But that is just me being cheap I guess.

As for the brakes, honestly, I have the $900 brembo kit with some cheap arse two piece rotors and pretty well outbroke EVERYONE at nationals... I don't see a huge market for big$$$ brake kits unless someone has a 3500lb car. Only positive is if they could use a cheap pad that outlasts the others....especially at tracks like ECR!!!

Anyway, just data points

thats not hard to do Matt.... plenty of CMC guys out brake AI cars. :P

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

thats not hard to do Matt.... plenty of CMC guys out brake AI cars. :P

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I am still waiting for you to "pull your plate" there goober boy!

Yeah, that is what I need to know and communicate. Is what kind of pricing you all are use to seeing and will consider in the ballpark.

Now Matt, what if the brake system is now 2lbs per corner lighter etc, and will last the race day at ECR if not the weekend? That is what I am looking for from PFC. The already have a kit for the S197 that will do it...

Just gauging interest for PFC... There is also interest from them in the area of contingency sponsorships of the series.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AJ@PST

Yeah, that is what I need to know and communicate. Is what kind of pricing you all are use to seeing and will consider in the ballpark.

Now Matt, what if the brake system is now 2lbs per corner lighter etc, and will last the race day at ECR if not the weekend? That is what I am looking for from PFC. The already have a kit for the S197 that will do it...

Just gauging interest for PFC... There is also interest from them in the area of contingency sponsorships of the series.

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Mine lasted the weekend and the street price (rumors) on the stoptech kits are $1899....some guys are selling them at near cost just to make a sale.

If there were an interest in my mind, it would be for a 14" kit that fits inside of our typical 17" AI wheels with cheap pads that last 4 events or more and runs less than 2000 bucks....but hey, I am probably dreaming! :lol:

AJ, any possibility PFC will do a contingency for those running regular 2-piston calipers? Many of us have been running their pads and love them, we would also love some contingency $$. :)

As for the big brake kits I would be interested in some information. I won't be running CMC2 until 2010 and am not even sure I will change my brakes then.
The only way I would even remotely consider switching to a 4-piston setup is if I could get the whole kit for under $1,000. I'm not sure if that kit even exists but that is my thinking on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AJ@PST

Yeah, that is what I need to know and communicate. Is what kind of pricing you all are use to seeing and will consider in the ballpark.

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AJ, I think the performance/price is about right given the rest of the market for the S197- 'course everything is still at a premium for that car.
:evil:

Not sure if you said already but will the PFCs fit the S197 with 17s? They would not when I last checked. The price would be worth it if that was the case ...save close to $400/set on tires...couple sets per year - not to mention more abundant/cheaper rims.

I doubt I am in a position to dump my APRs (which I do like a lot and I got for a great deal) and take on the PFCs but if they are looking for a guinea pig, let me know :)

AJ-thanks for all the info.

Toyo's-I think lots are getting ready to buy 888's so it might be a good idea to post some pricing.

Brakes-huge difference in what AI and CMC guys would or can spend on their brakes. New rules for CMC 1/2 just came out. CMC 1 can't upgrade to a 4 piston brake but CMC 2 can and as stated earlier the caliper price limit is set at $600 per caliper. For comparison sake Wilwood has come out with a kit aimed at A Sedan that will work for us F-body guys. Its $1,500 retail price and is a complete kit for the front wheels with calipers, brackets, rotors, and pads.

I would be interested in a PFC program but obviously not for $5k. If some contingencies were offered that would certainly help. I'm certainly willing to be a guinea pig. Your welcome to drive the car for some testing as well.

Please keep us updated.

Tire pricing for Full tread tires are posted in the for sale forum. I am working on the shaved prices. They will have to be shipped in from out of state.

ON PFC-

I have confirmation that I can sell a 4-Piston caliper to be used with a 355 or 323 disk for a little over $500. It is a similar version to the system used in Grand Am on the S197 cars. The difference being that it will be powder coated instead of elctro-nickel and will have pistons made of a different material. The caliper starts life as a forged mono-bloc and is then cut in two per Grand Am rules that only allow 2-piece calipers for Koni challenge cars... And Yes I believe that it will fit under a 17" and have a 355mm disc. This will not be true for all 17" wheels. I will have a profile drawing produced to use with checking of wheel dimensions. Based on your price comments I believe that I can have two spec kits for both CMC-2 and AI. CMC-2 target retail will be in the $1800 to $2000 range. AI will be in the $2200 to $2400 range. The systems will be lighter and better engineered than the competitors. Systems will feature 2-Piece full floating rotors with slotts (AI) and smooth faces (CMC-2). The CMC-2 system will feature a monobloc caliper that will fit a maximum 323mm rotor. You will save weight, gain brake torque and brake system repeatability. This will be as close to a full race system as the price allows.

I am working on a contingency program for all those who purchase PFC products and race those products. They eligible parts will need to be purchased through authorized PFC dealers/distributors. This will not be limited to brake systems, it will include pads so we can include the CMC class. I will also like to take this to other regions as well so any help with that will be appreciated. The larger volume we can put together the better the deal for all.

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Originally Posted by AJ@PST

ON PFC-

I will also like to take this to other regions as well so any help with that will be appreciated. The larger volume we can put together the better the deal for all.

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AJ,

Keep me posted, I can certainly help with the Rocky Mtn region. There are several of us up here you use PFC, and there are others who would be glad to use them if there are contingency bucks.

thanks
chris
chris-race at mccomb dot org