Sprint Race Pitting

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08-10-2009, 11:05 PM
Todd Covini

Sprint Race Pitting

OK...humor me here. We had a non-Group 4 race where a racer pitted and went to his paddock....and then returned to the race. While we all know, his chances of winning in a sprint race were shot, there was some debate as to the legality of such a return to racing.

In my eyes (and previous interpretations) you are fine with going to your paddock to correct a situation and return to racing and will likely be shown as X laps down when T&S records you (a'la NASCAR)

Others did not believe that it was legal to return to racing nor that you could work on the car anywhere other than pitlane in a sprint race such as ours.

I've scoured the CCR's....can't find anything that says you can or that you can't. Can I get a second opinion before I go to HQ for a CCR clarification???
08-10-2009, 11:18 PM
David Love AI27

I left the track one time to secure my exhaust and was told I could not reenter... I could see the problem if someone went out "light" padded their lead and came in to add balast.. not practical but possible
08-10-2009, 11:48 PM
Al Fernandez

Given that even a drive through the hot pit eliminates your chance for a win...who cares if someone does? I have no problem with someone coming in to repair something dumb, replace a flat, etc. then going back out to have fun. That's what we're here for after all...
08-11-2009, 12:00 AM
Todd Covini

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Fernandez

Given that even a drive through the hot pit eliminates your chance for a win...who cares if someone does? I have no problem with someone coming in to repair something dumb, replace a flat, etc. then going back out to have fun. That's what we're here for after all...

Once again, Al...your mental telepathy is working just fine. My read exactly, but I'm surprised to see that the CCR is silent on it. We need to get this straightened out and communicated so that cases like David Love mentions don't occur.

Gosh I love the Rules section of this forum!!!!
http://icanhascheezburger.files.word...0jazzhands.jpg
08-11-2009, 02:15 AM
donovan

Back in 2004 I lost a caliper bolt and discovered it during a red flag as we were sitting in pit lane.

Glenn and Mitch helped to get a replacement bolt, I went to the garage, they fixed the caliper and had me ready to get out on track... I proceded to the track entrance and was told I could not go back out.

I looked at the rules when I got home back them and did not find anything, but did not press the issue. I was only concerened about finished half the laps for points. I needed one more lap to get it... :(

DD
08-11-2009, 09:14 AM
GlennCMC70

i agree w/ Todd and Al. but there seems to be some inconsistant enforcement of this issue (not rule since there is not one). so two things need to happen, fix the CCR, and get NASA TX officials on the same page.
sounds like a HPDE rule of not allowing folks out on track at a set time durring thier session that got applied to the racers.
08-11-2009, 09:26 AM
AllZWay

I don't have an issue with returning either, especially in CMC/2 since just a start draws points, unlike the AI rule that requires half the laps completed for points.
08-11-2009, 09:33 AM
MikeP99Z

There is no reason that someone can't re-enter the track after going to the paddock. (Note: I've even seen someone switch cars to get points in 2 different vehicles/classes...we won't go there though).
08-11-2009, 09:54 AM
gt40

My two big concerns are 1) is it safe? and 2) is it fair?

1) The big risk is that the car reentering the track poses a hazard to other cars on the track. Given that these are sprint races, and that the entrance from the pits to the track is usually in a passing zone (MSR-C is one exception that I can think of,) I could see, in the heat of battle, drivers on track might miss seeing a car re-entering the track. It would be a good idea to have someone at pit-out to control the car reentering, keeping it out of harm's way.

The second safety issue I can see is that of a speed limit in the hot pits. A speed limit would have to be enforced to keep personel safe in the pits, and enforcing that speed limit would require personnel and equipment.

Related to the first, if the car is going to leave the hot pits and go "behind the wall" into the paddock, something would need to be done to insure that the car was operated safely there too. If a driver were in a hurry to get his car serviced and back onto the track, there'd be a strong motivation to speed in the paddock, making for a dangerous situation to bystanders. I'm not sure how to solve that other than to have an official accompany the car to keep things safe.

2) Given that we typically have sprint races, I don't see how reentering the pits could give anyone an advantage, especially if a pit speed limit had to be adhered to. So much time would be lost in the pits that it would be very difficult to gain any kind of advantage. David's idea of running light, getting a big lead, and then entering the pits to ballast up before the end of the race seems unlikely to be effective in a short sprint race -- you're just not on track long enough to make up for the time lost in the pits. However, it may be more effective in a longer race or an enduro. A solution to that might be to weight the cars immediately before and after the race.

Lastly, remember that the hot pits are a dangerous place, and any increase in activity there during a race increases the risk to drivers, crew members and officials. At tracks like TWS, we're blessed with huge hot pits, but other tracks like MSR-C have tiny little things. I'd hate to do much work there.

I am surprised that the CCR doesn't address this.
08-11-2009, 04:56 PM
BryanL

I have had this happen to me before. Can't remember why I came in but it turned out to be nothing. I go to head back out and Clifton said I couldn't go back out after going to the paddock. Had I known that prior I would have stayed on pit road to get out of the car and check it out so I could go back out if there was nothing wrong.
This is a good topic to address.
08-11-2009, 05:14 PM
David Love AI27

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanL

I have had this happen to me before. Can't remember why I came in but it turned out to be nothing. I go to head back out and Clifton said I couldn't go back out after going to the paddock. Had I known that prior I would have stayed on pit road to get out of the car and check it out so I could go back out if there was nothing wrong.
This is a good topic to address.

That is a good rule of thumb... if you haver an issue pull up to the stewards and ask for help checking your car. Then if they send you back out and you have a failure you have the comfort of knowing you had it checked out by others and it was n't something you might have overlooked yourself.

Most of our rules come from SCCA. Their rule book is MUCH bigger than ours. I'm willing to bet that since Clifton is familiar with SCCA, he is bringing his experience over to our series (NOT A BAD THING).

Mike P, Jeff W or anyone else have a SCCA rulebook?
08-11-2009, 05:52 PM
donovan

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Love AI27

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanL

I have had this happen to me before. Can't remember why I came in but it turned out to be nothing. I go to head back out and Clifton said I couldn't go back out after going to the paddock. Had I known that prior I would have stayed on pit road to get out of the car and check it out so I could go back out if there was nothing wrong.
This is a good topic to address.

That is a good rule of thumb... if you haver an issue pull up to the stewards and ask for help checking your car. Then if they send you back out and you have a failure you have the comfort of knowing you had it checked out by others and it was n't something you might have overlooked yourself.

Most of our rules come from SCCA. Their rule book is MUCH bigger than ours. I'm willing to bet that since Clifton is familiar with SCCA, he is bringing his experience over to our series (NOT A BAD THING).

Mike P, Jeff W or anyone else have a SCCA rulebook?

http://cms.scca.com/documents/Club%2...CR/2009GCR.pdf
08-11-2009, 07:16 PM
David Love AI27

Quote:

Originally Posted by donovan

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Love AI27

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanL

I have had this happen to me before. Can't remember why I came in but it turned out to be nothing. I go to head back out and Clifton said I couldn't go back out after going to the paddock. Had I known that prior I would have stayed on pit road to get out of the car and check it out so I could go back out if there was nothing wrong.
This is a good topic to address.

That is a good rule of thumb... if you haver an issue pull up to the stewards and ask for help checking your car. Then if they send you back out and you have a failure you have the comfort of knowing you had it checked out by others and it was n't something you might have overlooked yourself.

Most of our rules come from SCCA. Their rule book is MUCH bigger than ours. I'm willing to bet that since Clifton is familiar with SCCA, he is bringing his experience over to our series (NOT A BAD THING).

Mike P, Jeff W or anyone else have a SCCA rulebook?

http://cms.scca.com/documents/Club%2...CR/2009GCR.pdf

Thanks Dave...

6.10.2. Retiring to the Paddock
A car once moved to the pits shall remain there or on course during its
track time. A car that enters the paddock during qualifying and subsequently
re-enters the track shall forfeit any qualifying times recorded prior
to re-entry. A car that is removed from the pits or course during a race is
ineligible to return during that period of track time,
08-11-2009, 10:11 PM
David Love AI27

Well? What happens with this information?
08-12-2009, 12:26 AM
Todd Covini

Looks to be an SCCA rule, not a NASA rule. I'll talk to Clifton and the others to get a clear read. My past practice has been to allow re-entry only if/when cleared by an official.
08-12-2009, 07:08 AM
Alien

2.10.10 Re-Entry Marshal
The Re-Entry Marshal shall be responsible for communicating with Event Control, so as
to keep the grid informed of the time remaining before they will be expected to enter the
course. He/she will generally control the traffic entering onto the track. During HPDE
(non-competition sessions) the Re-Entry Marshal should hold vehicles in the pit lane
until traffic conditions present a safe window to release them. Normally, during sessions
allotted for the competitors (not HPDE groups), the Re-Entry Marshal will NOT hold cars
from (re)entering the track during their session. Certain deviations from this rule are
found in the Endurance Series Rules, which supersede the corresponding rule(s) found
here. Additionally, the Race Director may have vehicles held for assistance in entering
the course, should conditions warrant.
08-12-2009, 07:50 AM
David Love AI27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd Covini

Looks to be an SCCA rule, not a NASA rule. I'll talk to Clifton and the others to get a clear read. My past practice has been to allow re-entry only if/when cleared by an official.

Not the first time I've seen some crossing over. Thanks for starting this rules discussion. It has been enlightening plus less "gray" area for people to argue about...