How about these real world scenarios ...

Being as tape don't lie ... ;)

http://www.vimeo.com/5924170

At 1:53 a racer checked up because of a visibly blocked track. Two cars pass him going into the smoke.

When CW station was passed there was no yellow as the on-track condition was unfolding. But most everyone was waving hands and checking up which is the reason for the first driver to check up.

Technically OK to pass? What is the expectation?



No tape, but ...

Later in the race, same corner and from my POV, I was following a car which locked up brakes going into T3 as you crest the little bump. The car slid wide in the turn. He never left the racing surface, but did move WAY off-line and in that general direction.

I had already committed to turn in and went past him.

CW station at T3 was displaying standing yellow and debris flags.

After track out, I waved him back around me.

Question is, did I technically have to do that based upon his leaving the racing line and based upon the manner in which did leave the line?

I understand that had he checked up and ran the turn wide on purpose, then definitely no. But this was a lock up and slid straight instead of turning to apex.

Not asking for blame, pointing of fingers or a critique of any one's driving style. Just want to know how that would be judged post race had it been brought up.

To me, the answers are the minutia of detail that we seem to be approaching.

(deleted post) started with "in my opinion" usually followed by a lot of "I thinks" and "I believes"... trying to stop doing that...

appears to me JG had a run on SM coming out of 3 and had some part of his car next to SM. SM got on the brakes pretty hard and MM and JW almost got into the back of him. JG didnt brake as hard as SM and moved forward.
those were the only two cars that gained position in the vid provided.
did those guys violate a flag condition? no. there was no flag in 3 and if there was a flag in 2-1 we could not have seen it anyways. regardless - the change of position happened during an accident avoidance measure.

the right thing to do there would have been to reposition yourself behind the car you passed. we should never take advantage of a fellows drivers caution/concern over an issue such as this. no one knew what was in the smoke and each of us was afraid to enter. some more than others.
was there a rules violation? no. not w/ those cars mentioned above.

this seems to be putting JG and MM on the spot. lets not attack these two guys. i'm sure there eyes/mind was focused on what was happening in front of them and not so much about who they should be behind.
lets give them a chance to explain for themselves what they were thinking at the time.

I really don't think any explanation from those guys is necessary.

It doesn't appear they did anything technically wrong based upon a flag to flag, no passing scenario. And Jeff Wirtz and Jeff Burch could have passed as well because they had not yet made it to a CW station displaying a yellow flag.

Just like the shoe demo on Sunday morning, discussing these tiny, small nuances while on track and coming to a consensus as a group gets us all aligned and we know better what to expect from each other when put in this predicament again.

So the expectation is that as long as the CW station is not displaying a yellow flag when you pass it, passing is allowed regardless of track conditions.

Again, not pointing fingers or laying blame or throwing anyone under the bus or hidden agendas. Just learning and making myself, and others, aware of what to expect if similar circumstances arise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mitchntx

And Jeff Wirtz and Jeff Burch could have passed as well because they had not yet made it to a CW station displaying a yellow flag.

---

they could have. but i guess i wasnt clear in stating, i dont think it was thier (JG/MM) intent to gain a position, but rather accidenct avoidance.
Jeff and Jeff were in the same mode, as was i, but it didnt result in a position change. it ealily could have. the guys in front of the camera where closer to the issue than those futher back, thus less time to respond notonly to the issue, but to one another.

hmmm ... I can see that.

And let me be 100% clear ... I'm not saying any one did any thing wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mitchntx

hmmm ... I can see that.

And let me be 100% clear ... I'm not saying any one did any thing wrong.

---

Technically, your second scenario is also a no passing situation unless the car is completely stopped...JWL explained this at Nats last year....so accidentally passing him and waving him back by was exactly what you were supposed to do since the other car was still progressing down the track...now the wave back by according to the CCR should only take place once you reach GREEN track again. The rule stands DO NOT pass under yellow even if you are being waved back by, until it is green track again. I learned that one the hard way in Saturday's Qual race when Shotz waved us back by when he passed under yellow. Still blows my mind how he gridded on the front row too...? That race was fucked up on so many levels it wasn't funny...

Good info ...

ok I can't resist... I believe what Mitch is trying to assess is what do you do when all hell breaks out... Here is what I KNOW... If a corner worker reports that you made an illegal pass it is up to you to defend yourself. In the past, judgement went to the worker unless you gave back the position and it was supported by another driver or in some cases by another corner worker. In SCCA if the pass was not witnessed by another worker it usually wasn't called in. Now that everyone has in-car cameras you do have a defense. What you have to remember is you are at the mercy of the cornerworkers PERIOD. Always wave and smile... they see your eyes squint when you smile.

AND I was the first car behind FMR and I did brake very hard when I noticed smoke in the cockpit and saw him hunting for the track. I DID NOT throw my hand up untill AFTER I looked in the mirror... sorry guys my bad, I should have waved before or as I was braking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AI#97

Technically, your second scenario is also a no passing situation unless the car is completely stopped...JWL explained this at Nats last year....

---

Stopped or off the racing SURFACE (not line), correct?

Coming through T3 I was right behind Jeremy and we were on the inside of Steve. Everyone checked up and I cut left to avoid Steve. My focus was on the people in front of me and to make sure nobody ran into the back of me.
Never once did I contemplate or even think about gaining a position during the incident. My focus was getting through cleanly.
We made it past Frank and everyone started back as normal.

This is a great conversation about the rules and respect of NASA. Now this thread is making me proud... :P
Accident avoidence sometimes results in passing, and though not wrong by the rulebook, this is gentlemans racing... The difference here is simply the fact that we could not see where we were going, so in essence the entire track was blocked... Maybe I'm wrong here????? I am just thankful for the quick reflexes of all drivers in this group. It could have been a nasty moment!

Round of applause for Group 4....... *glad group 7 wasn't mixed in*

For the life of me I couldn't remember what happened, and everyone was checking out after the smoke, so I followed... as it occured my focus was on the guy in front of me, and the train behind me... I sure as hell didn't want to find a car with my front bumper, but Lemons experience taught me to keep an eye out for the guys behind that maybe looking elsewhere... I didn't mean to make an unsafe pass, nor was any pass in that situation intentional to gain a spot. I put two off trying to give space for everyone else to bunch up... The entire focus was the safety of the guys around me. Steve, I owe ya one...

Again, well done Group 4!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by michaelmosty

Coming through T3 I was right behind Jeremy

---

For the record this makes me smile :lol: :lol: :lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alien

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AI#97

Technically, your second scenario is also a no passing situation unless the car is completely stopped...JWL explained this at Nats last year....

---

Stopped or off the racing SURFACE (not line), correct?

---

Well, there is some ambiguity to JWL's statement...If I watch a car going into the tire wall...uh, yeah, I am going to pass him so what do you do...right?

The SAFE assumption is if you are behind a car that is leaving the surface entirely, or has 2 or 4 wheels off and MIGHT come back on track and there is a waving yellow at that station, the SAFE assumption, and one that is defensible if you are passed by someone behind you is to slow the car and not pass the Yahoo in front of you. If you were to pass, you best have a darn good explanation that it was safer to do so than staying behind the yahoo that was out of control. When making split decisions on track, your VERY FIRST thought should be for the safety of you, the other drivers and any track workers that might be affected. You will always have a defensible position in the IRB with that mindset instead of " I thought it was ok".

To add to Mitch's second scenario, and according to Clifton's rules in the driver's meeting, and NOT the CCR...The wave back by for position should not have occured till start finish. The CCR reads "in sight" and not perpendicular....so paying attention in the driver's meeting with slight changes to yellow and red cross flags is very important.


I also think everyone should be briefed on Clifton's speech about on track pace in the area of the red cross flag and EV's on track. 50% or get out your check book. The pace around Frank's incident with EV's on track was well more than 50% for some.... Just beware of Clifton! He is VERY serious about that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by michaelmosty

Coming through T3 I was right behind Jeremy and we were on the inside of Steve. Everyone checked up and I cut left to avoid Steve. My focus was on the people in front of me and to make sure nobody ran into the back of me.
Never once did I contemplate or even think about gaining a position during the incident. My focus was getting through cleanly.
We made it past Frank and everyone started back as normal.

---

Michael, I appreciate your documenting what you recall and the thought process. Good insight ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeremy Gunter

For the life of me I couldn't remember what happened, and everyone was checking out after the smoke, so I followed... as it occured my focus was on the guy in front of me, and the train behind me... I sure as hell didn't want to find a car with my front bumper, but Lemons experience taught me to keep an eye out for the guys behind that maybe looking elsewhere... I didn't mean to make an unsafe pass, nor was any pass in that situation intentional to gain a spot. I put two off trying to give space for everyone else to bunch up... The entire focus was the safety of the guys around me. Steve, I owe ya one...

---

More good insight ...

I was at point of the CMC classes when it happened and basically just held my line going into the smoke so that the guy behind me could react and avoid.

Post incident, I ran at about 80% till I could CLEARLY see there was no flag at S/F and then ramped it back up. And did this every lap while the section of track was under yellow flag.

So, is that meeting the expectation? Too conservative? Too aggressive?

I did notice it allowed the field immediately behind me to really bunch up prior to the S/F line and then it looked like the Oklahoma land rush post S/F.

When I passed Jeremiah, I never saw him after I passed him. The only way I knew he was still on track was because I heard him coming up beside me. I then waived him by.


My take away ...

Should have waited till after the S/F (next station not showing a yellow to give JK his position back)

My overtaking him was indeed a violation unless I could have conviced an official that it was "accident avoidance".

Accident avoidance, whether it be for a vehicle involved or simply someone checking up to avoid a vehicle involved puts a driver at risk of losing track position.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AI#97

I also think everyone should be briefed on Clifton's speech about on track pace in the area of the red cross flag and EV's on track. 50% or get out your check book. The pace around Frank's incident with EV's on track was well more than 50% for some.... Just beware of Clifton! He is VERY serious about that.

---

Did I miss the red cross flag? I only recall seeing it at S/F and it was AFTER I came through T3 with EVs at track out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by michaelmosty

Coming through T3 I was right behind Jeremy and we were on the inside of Steve. Everyone checked up and I cut left to avoid Steve. My focus was on the people in front of me and to make sure nobody ran into the back of me.
Never once did I contemplate or even think about gaining a position during the incident. My focus was getting through cleanly.
We made it past Frank and everyone started back as normal.

---

Same here; Chuck was 1 car length ahead, Al about 3... twice in my video you can't see either one of them in the smoke and I knew the pack was coming hard.

My thought was to stay track left, 1/2ish speed and gun it at the open CW station.

Certainly had the potential to be a 25 car "fog pile up."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mitchntx

Did I miss the red cross flag? I only recall seeing it at S/F and it was AFTER I came through T3 with EVs at track out.

---

I recall seeing it at T2 once the EV was on scene with Frank. It was also at S/F....Once frank was out of the car and the EV pulled behind the tire wall, I think the cross came down and the yellow was still up.

Either way, if the EV was near the track and CW's are out in harm's way, I am backing it down. There is most likely a yellow out so if you are behind me, be ready to slow down a bunch. I don't ever want a hurt CW on my conscience for life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AI#97

Either way, if the EV was near the track and CW's are out in harm's way, I am backing it down. There is most likely a yellow out so if you are behind me, be ready to slow down a bunch. I don't ever want a hurt CW on my conscience for life.

---

I feel the same way and did back WAY off the pace. But "backing off" is such a subjective term.

Clearly, as outlined in Glenn's post, if you back off and I don't back off as much, I can legally pass you under yellow under the blanket of accident avoidance.

I don't like it, I think its unsafe, but it appears to be the consensus. And I will follow the rules the group decides to follow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mitchntx

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AI#97

Either way, if the EV was near the track and CW's are out in harm's way, I am backing it down. There is most likely a yellow out so if you are behind me, be ready to slow down a bunch. I don't ever want a hurt CW on my conscience for life.

---

I feel the same way and did back WAY off the pace. But "backing off" is such a subjective term.

Clearly, as outlined in Glenn's post, if you back off and I don't back off as much, I can legally pass you under yellow under the blanket of accident avoidance.

I don't like it, I think its unsafe, but it appears to be the consensus. And I will follow the rules the group decides to follow.

---

Do you think someone in TX would deliberately make a pass on someone under yellow thinking they could use an excuse as accident avoidance?
If that is the case then I think a talk would be in order (with that person) regarding endangering the safety of fellow drivers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mitchntx

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AI#97

Either way, if the EV was near the track and CW's are out in harm's way, I am backing it down. There is most likely a yellow out so if you are behind me, be ready to slow down a bunch. I don't ever want a hurt CW on my conscience for life.

---

Clearly, as outlined in Glenn's post, if you back off and I don't back off as much, I can legally pass you under yellow under the blanket of accident avoidance.

I don't like it, I think its unsafe, but it appears to be the consensus. And I will follow the rules the group decides to follow.

---

you sure jumped to a big conclusion there. since there was no yellow, there was no penalty. had there been a yellow, you could have been called in by the CW and then a penalty levied. i never once said or attempted to imply a pass under yellow should/would be legal.
please corrdect your statement.

No Michael ... I do NOT think you or Jeremy passed illegally. Nor do I think EITHER of you did anything wrong or did ANYTHING intentional.

And Glenn's point was that there was no standing yellow when the corner station was passed. I glossed over that. Sorry 'bout that. It wasn't "clearly" stated ... apologies for the confusion.

Geez guys ... maybe we are still on the edge about the shit slinging that went on last week.

From MY AND ONLY MY POV ... if the track is blocked by debris or smoke, its an OBVIOUS yellow flag condition. We shouldn't have to be TOLD its yellow by a CW station.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mitchntx

To me, the answers are the minutia of detail that we seem to be approaching.

---

so now we are getting to the point of this thread.
when the track is obviously in a condition that warrants a Yellow (local or full course) do we act according to the flag condition (or lack of one in this case) or do we act in a manner that reflects the condition of the issue?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mitchntx

From MY AND ONLY MY POV ... if the track is blocked by debris or smoke, its an OBVIOUS yellow flag condition. We shouldn't have to be TOLD its yellow by a CW station.

---

That is the way I treated it.

I know what Mitch was getting at in the beginning.. but we can bench race this to death and get a million "what ifs"...

REALITY: this was a rare incident that you can't "safely" practice because it was a very dangerous situation (I'm not faulting Frank, he didn't intend for this to happen) there was debris, smoke, oil, a driver searching for the track and an entire field of cars comming at full clip...

I've been on a corner and witnessed this situation first hand and to be honest my focus was always on the crippled car and waving the hell out of the flag. The corner worker at three was probablly facing T4 and waving the workers at T2 couldn't see through the smoke... so... If you want to be a cheatin' bastard and take advantage just remember all the guys in group 4 are under one roof and most have cameras.

Honestly, I pulled the dumbest move by driving into the heavy smoke... I was so close that I got big drops of oil on the front of my car.

I should have said my statement differently Mitch. I am not upset at all with you or anyone. The past weeks discussions have had little effect on me. Nothing that has been said has ruffled my feathers one bit. In fact, my car is already cleaned and ready for ECR. :D
I didn't mean for my comment to sound like I was upset with your statement, never did I think that. I just wanted to make the point that I don't think anyone in this group would ever try to capitalize on an incident like happened in R4. I think we all respect each others safety way more than a finishing position in a race.

My dodge around Steve was 100% avoidance and then instantly my main focus went to the drivers in front of me.

Everyone did a awesome job there.

Similar scenario R3 L2 HMRC '05.
Shall I roll the beautiful bean footage?

J/K

Jb

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mitchntx

Clearly, as outlined in Glenn's post, if you back off and I don't back off as much, I can legally pass you under yellow under the blanket of accident avoidance.
.

---

and a quick post race protest would have his butt DQ'd if he didn't give it back either... "A pass under yellow is a pass under yellow..."... JWL...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by David Love AI27

The corner worker at three was probablly facing T4 and waving the workers at T2 couldn't see through the smoke... so... .

---

Well, while riding around in the passenger seat for several sessions, the Corner Worker at T3 seemed interested in something else other than watching the track. I got that same feeling during a couple of our races too.

The scenario we have been using here is rare, but the minute we say it never happens, it will happen again. Our discussion here has been great. It shows most all of us agree that safety will be the first thing at hand and continuing the race will take second seat. I think everyone did an incredible job avoiding each other and staying out of trouble. There are a couple issues after the melee that I didn't agree with and I already discussed those with that driver and I think we are all good again.

We are all adults here and the last 3 years of all of our shit we say or type has been water under the bridge. We still get along whether we like someone or not, and our colorful ribbing and bitching ultimately get us to a point of better understanding. As long as our respect for each other is high while on track...it makes no difference when we strap on the helmets and go have fun.....Right?!

So that being said, fuck you all and have a nice day! :lol:


Laugh you overly serious crumudgens!

MFW is mean!! :evil:
Piss off!!