weights at MSRH and penalties

For those of you that were not at MSRH this weekend I'm sure you will soon start hearing about the situation with weights on saturday. I'll try to explain what happened from my perspective...

The scales were up some time saturday morning. Several guys, including Wirtz, Kellam, and Valentin weighed their cars and adjusted as they saw fit. I heard from a couple of folks that it looked like the scales might be reading a little light.

After the 1st race saturday we had four cars under their weight. All were sent around for another pass and three of them gained weight on the 2nd pass (around 4lbs). One (Wirtz) gained enough to be legal. The others were still under.

Several background things to add to what is going on in my mind:
1) The CCR allows DQs to be dropable, the CMC rules do not. If I DQ these guys their season championship is over
2) The CCR allows a 5lb tolerance on weight in this case, the CMC rules do not. If these were AI cars one would be legal
3) Every single car was under what the driver expected. I myself weighed 3290 and I never come in under 3300.

Glenn and I talked about it, and called two other CMC directors for their thoughts. We decided removing these three cars from the championship hunt over a couple of pounds given that the scales may be somewhat light would not be right.

So, while I know I will be considered spineless by some...Glenn made the suggestion and I accepted:
All three cars (Kellam, Francis, Valentin) were given a "0" for the race, not a DQ. They were also made to start the next invert from the hotpits. They were also informed quite clearly that this is their one and only weight mulligan for the year.

We will continue this going forward: the first time (and only the first time) for the season that you come in under weight you will be given the choice of a DQ as per the rules or a "0" and a start from the hot pits. I'm sure the AI guys will take the DQ as it is dropable, but the CMC guys...well, that'll depend on each driver's desire to stay in the championship.

Hopefully you guys see this as being fair to all. Over the off season we revised the CMC rules to allow DQs for on track violations to be dropable. Maybe we didnt go far enough.

Oh, and if you plan on being at nationals expect that this will not apply there.

Tech was great this weekend... I like the fact that the cars were givin a good once over and and that penalties were just... these were not flagrant violations as all involved made the effort to comply and learned a lesson about "hokie" scales.

Great job, Directors!

I like the transparency, the facts, the position statement - you are clearly trying to do what is right by the competitors in this group - great step forward!

You guys gave everyone a chance both publically and privately to work through issues during the weekend...I know that takes extra energy and is not always easy to do when folks are in their competitive mind set.

This seems like a well thought out and fair solution. We have had some questions about the accuracy of the scales in the past. What is the status of our scales? Do they get calibrated? Is it time for an upgrade? FMR

You sure the scales were set to Lb and not Kg?

That HAD to be it; rhino liner is heavy, huh Boudy.

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Originally Posted by BlueFirePony

I like the transparency, the facts, the position statement

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+1

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Originally Posted by cobra132

This seems like a well thought out and fair solution. We have had some questions about the accuracy of the scales in the past. What is the status of our scales? Do they get calibrated? Is it time for an upgrade? FMR

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Here is the deal... the scales are made available to you anytime (you might have to get in line). It is up to you to weigh before you race to get your baseline for the weekend. I saw a number of "front runners" crossing the scales just BEFORE R1 on Saturday... This is not a perfect world and all of us need to learn the "tricks" to suceed... This is a topic that should have been covered in the rookie day...

Do you think it is a surprize that Wirtz crossed the scales with only 2 pounds to spare??? :wink:

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Originally Posted by BlueFirePony

I like the transparency, the facts, the position statement

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Along those lines:

Al had a carry over from last year... it is now over, correct?

There was a black flag situation, why and what were the results?

Not trying to stir things, just want to learn and know the facts... (transparency)

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Originally Posted by cobra132

This seems like a well thought out and fair solution. We have had some questions about the accuracy of the scales in the past. What is the status of our scales? Do they get calibrated? Is it time for an upgrade? FMR

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Prior to leaving Tech, I stood on each scale. 264 for each of them. I went to the doc today, 254.

If the scales can only be trusted to w/in 15lbs, my target weight would be 25+ over.

In the past we have asked to havethe scales calibrated and they always check out.

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

Prior to leaving Tech, I stood on each scale. 264 for each of them. I went to the doc today, 254.

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Your head weights 10 lbs more at the track.... come on Glen... smile!! you know you want to...

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Originally Posted by David Love AI27

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

Prior to leaving Tech, I stood on each scale. 264 for each of them. I went to the doc today, 254.

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Your head weights 10 lbs more at the track.... come on Glen... smile!! you know you want to...

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http://mydreamjob-ca.sitepreview.ca/...articlebox.jpg

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Do you think it is a surprize that Wirtz crossed the scales with only 2 pounds to spare???

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Yeah...I mean 2 whole pounds...I'd have expected max 1/2 pound :wink: - I saw a bag of McDonalds burgers sitting near his car - I suspect they were for ballast - tricks to succeed for sure!

I've heard of some SCCA Spec Miata guys a few years ago chugging several bottles of water while waiting in line at the scales and making weight by a mere pound... guess a burger is a new twist on that :lol: :wink:

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Originally Posted by kbrewmr2

I've heard of some SCCA Spec Miata guys a few years ago chugging several bottles of water while waiting in line at the scales and making weight by a mere pound... guess a burger is a new twist on that :lol: :wink:

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ROFLMAO.... Wirtz is a former SCCA racer.... He pulled into the tech shed and the first thing he asked is if anyone had gatorade... 8) makes me wonder if gatorade is heavier than water :twisted: I'm sure he already knows the answer to that... :roll: Professor Wirtz, would you like to respond??? :wink:

No comment :lol: I was sitting here working out how many Quarter-Pounders I would need to chug.... now I'm hungry.

I will say for what it is worth; I was one of the ones that was at Tech prior to Race 1 and I set my baseline from that measurement. I know the normal margin I carry for scale changes. Even doing what has worked for me for a few years in NASA, I came in on first pass 2 pounds light as noted. I checked my fuel figures, and I had burned more than I planned on, by just under a gallon, but that would have been ~ 6 pounds delta or less. There were a few other differences for me; no cool shirt setup in the car, and I have lost some weight. I thought I had done that math correctly but guess not. *shrug*

Needless to say, I've changed the magrin I carried for the other races ;)

And by the way, the Gatoraid request was a joke, I also tried to get someone to hand me one of the fire bottles that was stacked in the tech shed... :twisted:

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Originally Posted by David Love AI27

There was a black flag situation, why and what were the results?

Not trying to stir things, just want to learn and know the facts... (transparency)

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There was a reported "illegal use of track to gain a competative advantage" reported to me by the Race Director. I acted on it. I later over turned the ruling after more post race vid's were looked at.

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

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Originally Posted by David Love AI27

There was a black flag situation, why and what were the results?

Not trying to stir things, just want to learn and know the facts... (transparency)

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There was a reported "illegal use of track to gain a competative advantage" reported to me by the Race Director. I acted on it. I later over turned the ruling after more post race vid's were looked at.

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Thanks, Glenn... Lesson: Gotta remember to start using camera...

Running weight that close and knowing the moving over/under of the scales is a definite risk.

I liken it to driving 78 on the Interstate. Most of the time, you can get away with it. But every now and again, Johnny Law just doesn't agree.

The other side of that coin are the scales themselves. It's pretty easy to blame the scales and their lack of repeatability.

But the fact that the pads are skated all over the paddock to accomodate differing track widths and wheelbases makes repeatability a pipe dream.

If they were set up in a fixed location and left there, they would probably be much more reliable.

I put up a perfect zinger and this is your response????

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Originally Posted by mitchntx

Running weight that close and knowing the moving over/under of the scales is a definite risk.

I liken it to driving 78 on the Interstate. Most of the time, you can get away with it. But every now and again, Johnny Law just doesn't agree.

The other side of that coin are the scales themselves. It's pretty easy to blame the scales and their lack of repeatability.

But the fact that the pads are skated all over the paddock to accomodate differing track widths and wheelbases makes repeatability a pipe dream.

If they were set up in a fixed location and left there, they would probably be much more reliable.

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You don't love me anymore :(

It behooves me to see the lack of respect given to one of the tireless, hard-working leaders of this organization.

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Originally Posted by David Love AI27

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Originally Posted by BlueFirePony

I like the transparency, the facts, the position statement

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Along those lines:

Al had a carry over from last year... it is now over, correct?

There was a black flag situation, why and what were the results?

Not trying to stir things, just want to learn and know the facts... (transparency)

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In R4 I was in second place holding off five hungry drivers when I looked up at the flag stand and saw what I thought was a black flag for me. I moved over assuming something was wrong with my car. At the first corner worker station after that I did not see any black flags so I started going again. I learned a lesson......from now on I will have to get at least three black flags or I am not slowing down. Chris told me after the race it was for the 28. I did not see any number as I looked up right as I went under the start/finish line and it looked like it was for me since I was at the front of the line. To me it looked like he pushed it out at me. I never saw any number.

I want to thank Chris for driving me so clean. He was faster than me and our car would not turn in turn two at all. Several times he pulled up on me in Diamonds Edge but did not press the issue. He knew he was gonna get me soon enough I just wish I would not have seen the black flag so he would have had to at least worked for it.


JJ

I agree the black flag was pretty silly the first time out. Like Jerry said, there were 4 or 5 of us w-in 1 second of each other and there was no way in the world to tell who the flag was for. It wasn't until the second lap around that I saw the number board.
It would have been more beneficial if they had attempted to point the flag at the individual. Everyone knew the black flag was out, we just initially had no earthly clue who it was for.

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Originally Posted by michaelmosty

I agree the black flag was pretty silly the first time out. Like Jerry said, there were 4 or 5 of us w-in 1 second of each other and there was no way in the world to tell who the flag was for. It wasn't until the second lap around that I saw the number board.
It would have been more beneficial if they had attempted to point the flag at the individual. Everyone knew the black flag was out, we just initially had no earthly clue who it was for.

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Trying to do the right thing I screwed myself. I don't think there was a number when we went by the first time and since I was in front it looked like he was pointing it at me. Lesson learned.

JJ

Black flag/meatball really need to be shown with a car number on the board. As is the case here, if we are all close together there is little chance that the flagger can successfully communicate who the flag is for just by pointing at one of 5 cars 1second apart.

Each corner station has a board right? So it seems to me that if I drive by and miss it once, I should not be able to clear a lap w/o seeing my number a few times at least.

If it was pointed at him, I do not think you guys would be able to tell at those speeds and that tight of a pack.
The number board was displayed the whole time. I also was standing at the wall about 100 feet before the flag stand pointing up. Chris Cornwell was holding the sign. I was told at one point that the sign board was not seen till the 3rd lap. That is likely an issue - the size of the sign may seem big to those holding it, but likely not for those racing towards it. I'm sure the fact that Corn was wearing black w/ a black sign w/ black numbers didnt help. I'll see what we can do about that. I also questioned why the other flag stations were not pointing the black flag at the person intended. I got a non-responce.
The first thing I wondered after this was all over was .... how will this work at MSR-C? There is no flag stand.

Also, durring my first weekend racing w/ NASA, I was a couple laps from my first podium finish. Black flag displayed. I came in...... and so did the car behind me. I wasnt for me.
Point is, it happens and it goes both ways.

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

Also, durring my first weekend racing w/ NASA, I was a couple laps from my first podium finish. Black flag displayed. I came in...... and so did the car behind me. I wasnt for me.
Point is, it happens and it goes both ways.

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Glenn,
I saw the board but never saw a number. Where was the number? The board looked to be about 12" wide and 8" high.


JJ

JJ, I wondered what happened... while you were holding those guys off I was dicing it up with the back of that pack! :wink: I should have some pretty good video.

The black flag was pretty obvious to me, after 2 laps of displaying it at start/finish they brought out a black at turn 7 too. The number board, on the other hand, was very difficult to see and took more than just a glance to recognize. I'm not sure what made it so hard to see; maybe it was glare or the white sky background. I'll analyze the video and let Corn know what I find... maybe we can find a way to make the board more visable.

I bet it was the plastic cover over the moving parts.
Jerry, thats about the size it was.

I normaly have my dry erase board w/ me (in the trailer). I'll work w/ NASA to see about getting one made that is bigger and something all corner stations can have.

I'm shocked this has not been an issue prior to now. Should we get w/ the GTA's to see what happens w/ them? :shock:

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

I bet it was the plastic cover over the moving parts.
Jerry, thats about the size it was.

I normaly have my dry erase board w/ me (in the trailer). I'll work w/ NASA to see about getting one made that is bigger and something all corner stations can have.

I'm shocked this has not been an issue prior to now. Should we get w/ the GTA's to see what happens w/ them? :shock:

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So are you saying that 28 was written on the black board at start/finish? All I saw was black. No numbers at all. After passing the second corner worker station without a black flag pointing at me I knew I had screwed up.

We watched the video and you can tell the guy has something in his hand but you can't even tell what it is. That was on a laptop. Maybe it will show up better on a larger screen.


JJ

The first lap there was no number board anywhere. On the second lap they had a number board at both start/finish and in the sweeper. The 28 was visible but very hard to read.

There was a number board the whole time there was a black at start/finish. I was standing there the whole time.

Edit - It was only displayed when the offending driver was entring the straight.

Crappy quality, but you can see there was someone holding something.

-Jay

I was the guilty party for not seeing the sign if anyone was guessing who #28 was. :oops:

I saw the black flag every lap, but I never saw the sign....and in reality I never looked for a sign.... because I was watching the Flagman....not someone standing next to him.

I kept watching the flagman looking for any indication that I was being black flagged (like a finger point or furled flag...etc.).

I also looked at guages and mirrors and listened over my car and could see no reason I would be being black flagged and continued on looking for any indication who was being black flagged. Finally I did see Glenn along pit lane pointing at me and I pulled in that lap.

Initially when JJ pulled over early, I thought he was the black flag, but it kept being flown over the whole pack of cars starting with the leader.

I know that I'm about to get myself into trouble, here....

Won't be the last time either...

Since I was throwing up in the shower about the time you guys were in the driver's meeting... did Clifton say which station(s) was/were the black flag station(s)?? At MSRH it is usually the station after bus stop and S/F AND did he say where the number board was supposed to be??

LESSON FOR THE ROOKIES: You MUST know which station is the "black flag" station. As a former corner worker, I have been on the radio when the race director has told timing and scoring to stop timing a car that has "blown" a black flag for two laps or more... The race director is the one who decides when a black flag is needed, NOT the corner worker...

I'm not calling out Clifton or James... just tring to use this as a learning ecperience...

I remember seeing the number board; I was at the back of that pack of cars. Went back and checked video, it was there for the three laps. First lap looks like the flag was "displayed", the number board was just to the right (drivers perspective) of the flag. Next two laps it was waved, board also displayed. Board looked like a typical flip pit board.

Ditto in that I'm not trying to call out James or anyone, but for everyone remember to "scan" when you see a black flag. At S/F for the number board, and if at any other station to look for a number board or if it is a possible "black all" situation.

Great question about what would happen at MSR-C....

Jeff

We are addressing the size of the board and the issue at MSR-C already.

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

We are addressing the size of the board and the issue at MSR-C already.

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The result of open and positive discussion... as it should be... Thanks Glenn

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Originally Posted by David Love AI27

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

We are addressing the size of the board and the issue at MSR-C already.

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The result of open and positive discussion... as it should be... Thanks Glenn

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Call his head fat and then this?

Rapid cycling again?

:wink:

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Originally Posted by mitchntx

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Originally Posted by David Love AI27

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

We are addressing the size of the board and the issue at MSR-C already.

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The result of open and positive discussion... as it should be... Thanks Glenn

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Call his head fat and then this?

Rapid cycling again?

:wink:

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Not changing a darn thing... his head IS STILL 10 lbs BIGGGER AT THE TRACK... he confirmed it at the doctor's office... hehe..

DQ - Less than half a pound...

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/van...urn=oly,219966