Thanks for your patience while we finalize the IRB process and season points. They will be released as soon as they are final, and we continue to work on that daily.
-=- Todd
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Thanks for your patience while we finalize the IRB process and season points. They will be released as soon as they are final, and we continue to work on that daily.
-=- Todd
After a long week of IRB deliberations, the July TWS race results are now final. For those who are unaware, there was an unfortunate incident in CMC between a CMC Champion and a CMC Championship contender which caused damage per the CCR and took both vehicles out of season contention.
Come Monday morning, an IRB was formed with Todd Covini, Bryan Leinhart and Al Fernandez. Information gathering included weekend interviews, statements, video reviews, and discussions with various parties from various regions, including the National office.
The final conclusion of the IRB: Glenn Landrum was at fault for failing to properly control his racecar and causing an incident with vehicle damage per the CCR.
Unlike this incident, typical penalty for a minor first time offense causing damage in Texas has historically been a DQ and a defined probation period. The CCR states that the penalty for causing damage and track deviation is a DQ and 1 race suspension, however, in light of the fact that Mr. Landrum was on probation for failing to complete a body contact form at the previous event, as well as reports of aggressive driving during the race and existing season driver points...the IRB recommended to Race Director Clifton Winkleman that, at a minimum, double the CCR penalty was warranted in this instance.
The Race Director's final penalty assessment for Glenn Landrum's incident going forward was determined to be:
a) Race Disqualification
b) 2 race suspension (EXCLUDING National Championships)
c) 2 weekend probation (INCLUDING National Championships)
d) 3 driver points
A re-occurence of at-fault contact while on probation will mean AT A MINIMUM, this penalty will be doubled. This IRB represented the views of all racers, from various backgrounds. At some point in the process, penalty recommendations were stronger, at other points, the penalty recommendations were lessor. In the end, the process worked.
Updated season points will be posted here shortly. I will let Al discuss "new norms" for stricter adherence to CCR 27.11 for issuing body contact penalties in the future, once he returns from vacation.
-=- Todd
Allow me a few comments please.
27.9 The Collection
When a driver spins or otherwise loses control over his/ her vehicle, and the car(s) following that person hits the spinning car, fault can be hard to determine. In most cases, this is considered to be a racing incident. The normal highway “following too close” law does not apply to the racetrack. Whenever a car spins out of control, it is up to the reactions and instincts of the following drivers to brake, accelerate, or swerve in order to miss the spinning car. In most cases, the following driver that fails to avoid a spinning car and/or causes more cars to become involved, should not be held liable. About the only time that any penalties are issued in this type of situation is to the driver that spun, should this driver be on probation at the time of the spin.
Under the guidelines of the CCR, the fact that I was on probation is the only reason a penalty should be handed out in this case. Had I turned in a contact form at Hallet, there would be no grounds for issuing a penalty. And understand, the probation was for not turning in paperwork for contact that did not require any penalty of any form. Something which I have allowed most everyone to get away with. For contact that was in no way my fault.
27.11 Issuing Penalties
The IRB may choose to issue any penalty for any infraction. However, it is highly recommended that they follow closely with what is published in the rulebook. Any deviation from what is published without due proof of mitigating circumstance may be grounds for appeal. The following is a list of suggested penalties for the listed infraction:
1. Contact bumper to bumper with no deviation and no damage: No penalty
2. Any sheet metal contact with no damage and no deviation: No penalty
3. Any contact causing deviation, with no damage, but loss of a position: Reposition
4. Any contact resulting in “damage” as defined by these guidelines: One (1) race suspension
5. Any contact resulting in a “punt” as defined by these guidelines: Disqualification
6. Any contact resulting in damage and punt: Disqualification and one (1) race
suspension
7. Passing under a standing yellow or double yellow: Reposition to last place
(minimum)
8. Passing under waving yellow and / or over-driving any yellow: Disqualification
(minimum)
These are general guidelines for standard penalties. They may be additive or
multiplicative depending on the situation and the person’s past record. The IRB may
invoke more severe penalties for repeated violations. Any deviation from these
guidelines should be justified in the report to the Race Director.
But, since I was on probation from Hallett, I am subject to a penalty. That penalty should consist of a single race suspension. Rarely do we as a series follow the recommendation of the CCR for penalties; the norm is to tone it down some. In this case the IRB felt the penalty should be increased to more than what we normally hand out, increased to more than what the CCR recommends. In fact the IRB saw it fit to double this penalty. A precedent that had never before been set with-in this region. If doubling the CCR recommended penalty was not enough, the IRB felt that a two weekend probation should be added on. Something the CCR makes no mention of as a suggested penalty. I was essentially handed a penalty that is 4 times the recommended CCR penalty. To add to this even more so, the two Sunday races I missed at TWS do not count towards my 2 race suspension.
27.3 Data Collection
The Chief of the IRB shall ensure that at least one (1) member from the IRB is in impound after each race, for all classes. IRB members that are present in impound shall ensure that all drivers involved in on-track incidences fill out a body contact report form. The IRB member(s) shall collect these forms, make notes as to the damage that they observed, question the parties involved, and make notes on the forms. These forms shall be turned over to the Chief of the IRB for review. At the end of the day’s activities, the IRB shall meet, review each case, make the appropriate decisions, and turn over the findings and reports to the Race Director. Exact meeting times and places shall be determined the Chief of the IRB.
The reason I feel as though the TWS Sunday two missed races should count as my required two race suspension is the above point. The IRB should have concluded at the end of the days activities. If the IRB had followed the CCR, the penalty would have been handed out Saturday and would have been effective from that point in time. Thus, my Sunday races would be my required two race suspension. Since the IRB did not follow the requirements of the CCR, my two race suspension has now been turned into a four race suspension. So at this point I am at about 6 times the recommended CCR penalty.
27.4.1 Body Contact
Body Contact is defined as any part of any car making physical contact with another car significant enough to cause one (1) car to sustain body damage or to be significantly
knocked off of the racing line.
This is to point out that I was assed a penalty point for the contact at Hallett and section 27.11 item 1 points out that I should not have received a penalty point. This point was a factor in the outcome of the IRB.
27.2 Format
The Race Director shall appoint or approve a Chief of the IRB. The Race Director may function to fill this position if needed. This Chief shall report directly to the Race Director. The IRB shall be made up of three (3) to five (5) drivers, crews, and/or Officials. Each IRB member must be a participating member of NASA, and have at least one (1) year of racing experience. The Race Director has the power and authority to waive these requirements, or exclude individuals for due cause. Any articipating driver may attend and audit IRB sessions, subject to the approval of the Race Director. The IRB shall constantly recruit new volunteers to sit in on (audit) sessions and become properly trained. The IRB is encouraged to make attending IRB sessions a requirement for some drivers as part of their due penalties. To be a voting member of the IRB, the person must have fully read and understood these guidelines, and must have audited at least one (1) IRB session.
I feel fairly confident that one person seated on the IRB did not meet these requirements.
Understand, I feel horrible about the damage to Rob’s car. I feel horrible for the loss of control of my car that could have had much more serious consequences. I have spoke to Rob and expressed how sorry I am for what happened. I apologized to the group on Sunday for my actions.
So what have I learned from all of this you ask? I have learned I need to take a look at my driving style. This was something I have begun to take a look at and have been adjusting since MSR-C of this year. I have learned that I possibly need to make further adjustments to what I’m doing. This as a result of this IRB and as a result of conversations that have taken place here on this site.
But I have also learned other things as well. I have learned that my fellow racers feel as though the CCR is too forgiving and that penalties need to be ramped up. The IRB has spoken and it has been well received. As Todd mentioned, things are about to change in a very big way.
So with that said, I accept the penalties issued from the IRB. I did however appeal the penalty to the Race Director and made it quite clear I was only appealing one part of the penalty and one part only.
During the previous two events prior to TWS, there were two similar incidents, one of which I was on the receiving end of, no different then Rob. In both those cases, the drivers who were found at fault were in no way remotely penalized to this degree.
For whom? I'm not convinced it all happened the way it was supposed to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Covini
I guess it's time to memorize the CCR.
I'll admit I'm just pissed about what happened ~ thank God nobody got hurt.
John Lindsey was also part of the IRB. Todd forgot to mention that.
David: speak your mind then. Saying you're "not sure" adds zero value to anyone. Same goes to the rest of you. Speak your mind. If you dont want to speak your mind in public, call me and tell me what you're thinking. I cannot fix what I do not know is broken.
Glenn, the reason you are receiving any penalty is because you were at fault for contact causing damage and loss of position. The reason it was so severe was due to overagressive driving in your history and being on probation. You were not given a point on the Shit List due to the Hallett incident. Obviously we still need to talk through some of these details, I'm available any time.
First of all ...
No one ... NO ONE ... has been more vocal about driver conduct on course than I have. I have been critical of Glenn's driving as well as others. So remember that ...
I can't believe this witch hunt. This is beyond ridiculous.
Figure twelve in the CCR is abundantly clear ... Glenn didn't even have to attempt to turn. He could have gone straight through the turn and the burden is on Rob to avoid contact. I think it's a stupid rule, but it's the rule.
But Glenn DID turn, left plenty of track for Rob and cleared Rob's bumper which, according to the CCR, means the pass was completed and completed without contact.
So all examples of contact the CCR lays out, pointing the fickle finger of blame as it pertains to contact while passing are gone. They don't apply. They are off the table.
No contact occurred while attempting a pass.
The contact occurred post pass and therefore falls into the section called "Collection".
And again, the CCR is clear ... the trailing driver has the burden to avoid contact. If contact occurs, there is typically no fault given and no penalty assessed.
UNLESS ... the spinning driver (Glenn) is on probation. That is the ONLY trigger that would convene a review to assess if a penalty is warranted.
Penalty ... PENALTY ... not fault ... PEANLTY. Two completely seperate factions of an IRB.
And I think it's an important point out that Glenn's probation was administrative and not the result of on-course conduct. He failed to turn in paperwork for insignificant bumper-to-bumper contact between he and Chris McComb at Hallett.
And if the reason for that be known, he was working to set grid for the rest of us to go racing. Remember the bitch-fest about not being contacted to go to grid and the lateness of the grid being set?
So, the lesser of two evils, right? Had he filled out that piece of paper, all this review would have never have happened.
By the same token, had Rob let Glenn continue his path of self destruction, both cars would have finished the race. Rob was clearly in position to take the spot back after Glenn went agricultural, why attempt to squirt by? No one was pressuring you guys for position ... Easy to Monday morning QB, eh?
So the fact that he was on probation triggered the review.
Then a witch hunt ensues.
Again, the CCR is clear ... contact with damage ... 1 race suspension and 1 weekend probation. No, let's double it to make an example.
Well that's bullshit. Follow the damn rules. Don't get all pias, high and mighty. Just follow the damn rules.
This is exactly what happens when the rules are "flexed" to a point where no one can interpret what will happen next. This "whim" of a penalty is just as bad as no penalty from a rules application POV.
Who knows WTF will happen next time. Quadruple it? Wash cars? Give pedicures? Dress in a diaper and follow Clifton around the paddock?
And you want history?
How about as recent as June of THIS year. Bryan White turns left to avoid contact with Caulder which had gone off track and clearly had an ill-handling race car as evidenced 300 yards later in the Bitch.
While trying to avoid Caulder, Bryan spins and Dave Balingit and he get together causing severe damage to both cars. Penalties?
White assessed a DQ ...
This is NOT about defending Glenn, it's about following the damn rules with at least some consistency and not about easing your conscience for not doing so for so many years.
No one is more disappointed that two cars are torn all to hell, bids to go to nationals are squashed, that the prophet Rob's prediction came true, the conduct of the leadership and the pendulum swing as far off the scale to the left as it has.
And to answer your question publicly ... yes, Todd ... Glenn and I argue about this stuff all the time ... in person, over the phone and here on the boards.
I'm the same person, with the same views and the same opinions here or any where.
But I'm sure this thread is doomed as well because nothing will be "fixed" here either.
Learning and understanding the rules is secondary, I guess, to maintaining a public image through Todd colored glasses.
What color is that today?
That is correct. From my understanding he was added due to the lack of ablity of two of the IRB members to agree upon a penalty. He was there to mediate those two members. The disagreement was due to a significant delta between the proposed penalties. Again, from what I'm told.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
Ok, from my original, revised and ultimately deleted draft response: This is bullshit!Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
I dont know what's unclear about:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fbody383
If it's not done in public, i.e. an after the fact, outside the rules IRB, it doesn't progress the situation. I'll be public and bear the risk of pissing these guys off: J. Kellam, R. King and R. Boudreaux ~ after Glenn, you guys are at the top of my list of cars I look out for on track. Jeremiah is aggressive with control, though I expect he'll have a similar incident and I hope it's in region and not at Nationals. The Roberts seem to have more aggressiveness than car control. Pot calling the kettle black? Maybe; don't worry, I got thick skin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
And all you guys that delete posts, instead of standing on it or having to admit a mistake, are a bunch of bitchy little girls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
So it takes an incident tearing up two cars to address "overagressing driving in (a drivers) history" to enforce penalties, including to my understanding right now, made up penalties?Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
Speaking of that, how about my disqualificaiton according to the rules AND example setting pit drive through in Houston for being underweight?
I guess the only thing that could make this worse is by penalizing the Ford guy for the second gear, full throttle punch into the Chevy.
HOW IS THIS FOR CLEAR:
1) Am I currently serving any form of probation or discipline for failure to report my incidental contact with Mr. Vogl at Hallett? Do you request or require a post event contact report form?
2) Post, in a clearly titled thread, my existing "shit list" points and occurrences.
For now, I see it like this: we're a bunch of competitive 'A' type personalities with a common interest in RACING, small block V8 pony cars. We operate instruments designed and tuned for a specific purpose that involves speed and close quarters operation. There will be incidents, it's how we handle them matters.
Orange is fast, but color me PISSED.
How are suspensions served?Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Covini
Where is it addressed in the CCR and/or CMC ruleset?
If this was such an egregious offense to earn the described penalties, why exclude Nationals?
I think you guys meant well in your IRB board and understand the want to curb overly aggressive contact....... but I think we have now knee jerked to the opposite end of the spectrum.
Racing is racing and crap happens.... and this incident I don't think most anyone would consider as overly aggressive driving....at least from what I can tell from the video.
Now... can we get an explantaion of just what is considered overly aggressive driving and what is just a racing accident?
I can not believe this has been posted. I have not made a final decision.
wow...where to start.
Mitch, the entire premise of your argument is wrong. This incident was decided as at fault. Therefore we would expect a penalty. He isnt being penalized for being on probation as you said. He's being penalized for being at fault for causing an incident that resulted in damage.
Figure 12 does not apply in this case. It was discussed. Figure 12 covers a situation where the overtaken car turns in at the usual turn in point in spite of the fact that there is a car in the way. Thats not what happened.
The view of the IRB was that Glenn attempted a pass and was not fully in control of his car in the execution of that pass. He lost control of the car and the reason for it is he went in too deep, too fast: a botched passing attempt. The fact that the contact itself occured after Glenn had cleared Rob does not wipe clean the fact that Glenn got himself into that situation because of the passing attempt.
So, once the IRB established that it was at fault, the question becomes what the penalty should be. Here in Texas the typical penalty for at fault with damage is a DQ and probation. The IRB decided this had to be escalated, did so, and put it into Clifton. Clifton gave it the green light, Todd told Glenn, Glenn appealed a specific part of the penalty...and apparently Todd thought Clifton had made his decision on that appeal but now it looks like that's not the case. I'll leave that to Todd and Clifton to clear up.
David...I'm still not clear, sorry. I'll call you. No you're not on probation, you would know if you were.
There is no written definition in the CCR about how to serve suspensions. The accepted practice is you have to be capable of running the sessions you are serving the suspension for. In other words, you cannot serve your suspension when your car is in pieces in the paddock. You similarly cannot serve your suspension by not running races at a NASA event at VIR when you live in LA.
The reason we excluded Nationals from the suspension period was as follows. Nationals is different than regional races as it requires a significantly higher amount of money and time to participate. There are prizes on the line, along with more notoriety than normal. A penalty that results in someone not participating in that event therefore is more severe than one that results in only missing a regional event. We wanted a two race suspension. That two race suspension impacting Nationals would therefore be more of a penalty than had it occurred at a time that it did not impact Nationals.
Look at it this way...if the incident had happened at Hallett, we would've been looking for the two race suspension which Glenn would've been able to serve without impacting Nationals. We didnt want the timing of the penalty to make it more punitive than intended.
Al, you called and asked me to call you.
Don't worry about it.
I highly suggest anyone that cares to talk about this on here or anywhere else first make sure they have read the CCR for anything that pertains to this situation. As Al said anyone that has a comment to make on it please post up or contact Al. But as the CCR states to IRB members be careful not to rely on your racers instict to decide a case.
27.11 Penalties
These are general guidelines for standard penalties. They may be additive or multiplicative depending on the situation and the person’s past record. The IRB may invoke more severe penalties for repeated violations. Any deviation from these guidelines should be justified in the report to the Race Director.
Obviously I have spent a lot of time on this issue so I'm curious what the rest of the group thinks. If you don't feel like posting give me a call.
Who's on first?
jb
Not sure ... but the last at bat whiffed on a low and outside slider.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffburch
This whole deal must be generating some interest outside the confines of registered AI/CMC folks ...
Quote:
In total there are 13 users online :: 1 Registered, 0 Hidden and 12 Guests
After the last fly ball, I believe Clifton was at bat. Just waiting for the pitch...
Todd
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts." --Daniel Patrick Moynihan
I'm staying out of this, but I will say this...Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Covini
A fact is the opinion of how the data should be manipulated
First I have to say I consider Glenn a very good friend. I hope he knows that.
I have mixed emotions about this whole thing. On the one hand you have to go by the CCR. I don't agree with alot of the CCR plus I think it needs some additions but it is our rulebook. On the other hand Glenn has been driving out of control IMHO way to much in the last two years. To many low percentage moves and I think he was completely out of control all through the pass on Rob. Rob sees him comming and stays outside. How bad would it have been if Rob had turned in normal instead of seeing Glenn and knowing what Glenn was going to do? Expectiing it. Several drivers (guys way faster than I) have bitched about this for a while. I'm glad I was not on the IRB.
JJ
Ask Rob, I was beside him well before Rob's turn-in point. I was not at "rigths to position", I was door handle to door handle. I had a big run on him in R1 and R2 out of 5. A few times I hit the brake to not bump him on the straight. Rob however didnt stay outside as you believe. He sqeezed me down - legally.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowBolt
I owe you four guys an apology. It was unfair and simply wrong to call you out here without ever expressing a concern directly to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fbody383
I did not mean to imply in any way that I was uncomfortable being on track and racing with you in any situation, only that I am conscious that we're in close proximity. I made a mistake in the manner I dit that; I'm sorry.
I don't like having to guess how people want to race; i.e. when in class I will race guys like Landrum, Liebbe, Wirtz, Mosty, Kellam, Fernandez to the nth degree of the rules. I try to give guys like Jerry Jordan, Warren and "new" guys decidely more room. If you have ANY concern about my style please let me know directly or through one of the Directors.
I had a long talk with Al this afternoon; he had to call me twice because I didn't call him back after he left the first message but I had settled down the next time he called. I believe we had a very fruitful discussion.
NO ~ I don't want Als's, Todd's, Glenn's or Clifton's job. I think overall they do a fantastic job and I appreciate the hard work.
NO ~ I don't agree the process was correct though I now appreciate some of the mechanics around the TWS weekend but am still uneasy.
NO ~ Even though Al and I talked about it quite a bit, I'm still grappling with the "at fault" determination. Not Al's fault, my stubborness.
YES ~ I make mistakes and try to own up to them.
Needed add? Can this be settledd via fine paid, i.e. Entry Fee / # of races?Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
No longer quite as upset; I should just stop posting after the kid's bedtime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fbody383
For clarity David, your concern around the process is about how a decision was made to defer the investigation until after the weekend was over as opposed to doing it on the spot, correct?
Anyone can write Jerry Kunzman (who owns the CCR) and make recommendations. I know Jerry is fond of built in flexibility around things like this, but I would agree that some semblage of definition around a suspension would be appropriate.
If Glenn's alleged aggressive driving style is true, I hope someone has discussed this with him, both fellow drivers and race officials. It would not be fair to penalize someone for driving aggressively and they had just found out about it.
It would be like your end of year review in which you thought you were doing well, but your boss tells you that you suck and are not doing your job.
though this is my first year of racing, and oh how cool racing is, I have also learned each of your driving skills or lack thereof. Because of my big orange plate, I appreciate the extra room that each of you give me. Believe me, I give some of you some extra room as well.
It may be hot in Houston, but Racing is way ccol.
To everyone -
I ask that you pick-up the phone and call me before you post your opinions on this forum. I'm not asking you to not post them, but rather you talk w/ me before doing so. I'm asking this as a racer and not as a Series Director. If you need to call me for nothing more than the already posted "I told you so!", thats fine - I can take it.
The reason for this request is it seems lots of folks are polarizing towards one camp or the other. Things typed on the net can be taken differently than they were intended. We have all seen how a simple apology can turn into a 50 page bitch fest. This will likely go down the same path.
817-350-3542
To those that already know everything then yes, these are "bitch-fests".
But until the "Apology" thread came along, how many had actually taken the time to know, undestand and use the CCR?
If it's all about image and keeping the curtains drawn, then yes, every one stop posting unless the flowers smell good and birds are chirping.
If a internet "bitch-fest" keeps potential drivers away, then what there is to offer a racer is pretty damn shallow.
I'm not trying to keep this off the forum, but rather when an opinion is posted, the comments are clearly understood by those the comments are directed. This will allow the topic to travel a much narrower path and previous attempts.
Not directed at any one ... just a general comment.
Consider for a moment how a normal converstion goes where two people don't necessarily agree.
The focus is never narrow and pointed. And the more you attempt to herd it in a specific direction, the more off-tangent it will become.
Again, if an internet thread means customers leave, what does that say about the product offered?
When I see passionate people expressing concern, opinions and ire, it tells me its a dynamic group and I need to step up my game to make sure I keep up.
If you see it as detrimental and pointless, then maybe you need to check your ego at the door. You might just learn something.
:lol: Do you two ever agree on anything? I can just see the arguments in the shop about where to land a tube within a roll cage :wink:
Landing the tubes ... not so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
Notching of the tubes ... oh yeah!
I've learned it easier to let him do what he wants and move it later when he isnt looking.Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
He who has the welder in hand puts it in its final spot.
Glenn is usually drunk when he is welding.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
No apology necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fbody383
I appreciate your concerns and your honesty. I really do.
My work, and my daughter mean that I get to the track irregularly. I do what I can in HPDE to knock the dust off, but there's no substitute for wheel-to-wheel racing and it shows. I'm too agressive on track and my car control suffers for it.
I'm not in any points hunt, so there's no reason for me to drive hard.
I think its because I feel I have to do something when I'm on track to make up for all the events I've missed. That is the WRONG REASON, and after a few days if reflection I have realized that.
My objective at Eagle's Canyon is to drive clean -- no spins and no agressive moves. If that means I finish DFL every race -- so be it.
(Though if I end up with Crumpacker in my mirror, that's going to be TOUGH! I can't help racing him, even if it is out of class. ;) )
If you guys have ANYTHING to say about my conduct, please let me know. I won't get pissed -- I'm not that kind of guy. I use the input to improve myself, always. If you do it face-to-face at the track -- fine. If you want to email me, send me a PM, or bring it up in a thread, that's OK too. Though if you put it in a thread, I'm much less likely to notice it. (Threads that degenerate into a bitch-fest have little interest to me so I generally ignore them.)
So the season points are?????