Need help from gun guys

I'm thinking about getting a small 380 to carry in my pocket. I know a 380 is not much gun but a 9mm or 45 is impossible for me to carry wearing jeans and a Polo type shirt (my normal work attire). Jay and I are thinking about the S&W 380 Bodyguard. Jay has found a place with a great price. Just looking on the web I think I like the Sig P238 a little better. I have my dads old Sig 45 auto he carried when he was with the DPS and I really like the Sigs. I have a lot of knowledge about shotguns but know almost nothing about pistols. Anyone have thoughts on a pocket carry pistol?

I know I could be like BL and carry a bigger gun in a fanny pack but I can't pull off the fanny pack look like BL can.


JJ

I'd really look into a compact .45 just for the stopping power. A .380 will get the job done most of the time simply because the psychological impact of getting shot is enough to stop most people, but in some cases where adrenaline takes over, they can continue to function after being wounded (although they might die 10 minutes or so later) and that defeats the purpose of stopping an attack. If you're not dead set on a Sig, the Glock 30 is a nice small pistol that is not too much bigger than the Sig P238.
If you don't have to wear your shirts tucked in you could carry it in the small of your back.
A .357 Sig would be my next choice after a .45 but they don't make as many models in that caliber.

Look at the sig 938. Its a little bigger than the 238 but holds 7 9mm rounds. FMR

I've been researching carry pistols that I could conceal in work clothes (slacks & dress shirt or polo). Size and weight were definitely a factor (that's what she said?). I narrowed it down to 5 to start with:

Sig P238
S&W Bodyguard (.380)
Sig P938
S&W M&P Shield (9mm or .40)
Glock 26 (9mm)

I took the 'need more stopping power' argument and knocked out the .380s, even though I'm a big fan of the p238 and it's the smallest and lightest by far. Reviews for the Shield and Glock were both great, but the p938 has had a fair number of 'failure to extract' issues. That plus the limited availability and high cost took that out. The Glock and Shield were pretty comparable, but the shield was lighter and came in .40 (although a 3 finger grip on a short barrel .40 makes it difficult to put multiple shots on target quickly). I was leaning towards the Shield, then I read an article that a friend posted on another board:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866


Now I'm back to the P238. Great reviews, 1911 design, proven, small and light.

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The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...

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I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.

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Take a look at the data. I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!

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I'm with you on the size thing, Jerry. The smaller 9mms are just slightly too big even tho it's better than any .380, but I like the saying about a .380 on you is better than a .45 at home. If size wasn't an issue, I'd carry my Glock 23.

I did some research and handled a few .380s and the smaller 9mm. Only shot a .380 LCP (no thanks). Of the .380, Laura likes the Sig P238 and I really like the Kahr P380. Both have good sights, and I've read they're not a bear to shoot, so you can actually get some range time with them without beating up your hand. Havn't personally shot either yet, but that will happen after we get our CHLs.

Kahr P380 seems very Glock-like. Double action only, no external safety, easy controls. No hammer to get hung up on.

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Originally Posted by Crumpacker

I narrowed it down to 5 to start with:

S&W M&P Shield (9mm or .40)

I was leaning towards the Shield, then I read an article that a friend posted on another board:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866


Now I'm back to the P238. Great reviews, 1911 design, proven, small and light.

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I have a Sheild and like it. Easy to carry, conceal and make ready.
It's relatively inexpensive and the accessory market is finally catching up.
I have about 300 rounds though it and its a great shooter for me.

I've seen the article you referenced Sam.
A couple things stand out ... 9mm has by far the most hits and the most fatal shots of any other caliber.
So the percentages, although higher, represent a LOT more hits and fatalities.

And this quote:

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One other thing to look at is the 9mm data. A huge number (over half) of 9mm shootings involved ball ammo. I think that skewed the results of the study in a negative manner. One can reasonable expect that FMJ ammo will not stop as well as a state of the art expanding bullet. I personally believe that the 9mm is a better stopper than the numbers here indicate, but you can make that decision for yourself based on the data presented.

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Well duh ... RN FMJ is like a small dart going through ... it's not doing much damage on the journey. Stands to reason it would take more rounds on target.


I know a few folks with 238s and like them. But my lobster claw hands just don't work with such a small gun.
I can never cleanly draw it and after the 3rd shot, it begins walking around in my palm making reaquiring the target difficult.

another possibility is the Springfield XDs in 45ACP.

Did someone say claw?

Were you talking about Michael "Scissor/Lobster Claw Toed" Mosty? What kind of gun does he need to carry for his toes.

http://vimeo.com/9377621

If your looking for a cocealed carry weapon almost any of the name brands will be good choices. The lack of controls on the Glocks and Kahrs of the world is a great thing on a gun in the event you are forced to use it. Your mind will go into sensory overload anyway so you dont want to have to use any fine motor skills.

The 9mm and 380 hollowpoint rounds have come so far since they first came out that they are much more effective than they used to be. I HIGHLY recomend Speer Gold Dot hollowpoints. I carry a .357 SIG but I have carried .380s in the past and was figured I was better off with that than nothing at all. Gun fights always come down to hits so accuracy will rule the day.

Buy something small and light enough that you will carry it! It doesnt do you any good on the nightstand by the bed when you need it. If I had a dollar for every person I stopped with a CHL that didnt have a gun on them I would be a millionare and retired already. It always amazed me that people would go to all the trouble to get the license and then not carry the damn gun!

One warning: I would stay away from the Kel-Tec pistols. They are very small and very easy to conceal, but they are very picky about ammo and one failure is one too many. I have already gotten rid of mine and know three or four other guys who did the same.

To me the key is having it on you. If its too much of a hassle to rig up the holster, you're going to not do it. Pocket carry is awesome because you grab your wallet, phone, pistola, keys and you're gone. I would imagine even a Shield is too big for pocket carry. My boss has a 238 and loves it. I have a 642 for pocket carry. If I had to do it again I would've bumped up to a snubby capable of 357s. If you miss you'll burn the guy to death.

To john's point the 9mm and .380 have come a long way but you need to research gun and ammo to make sure they fit. My wife's PPK can unleash a world of hurt with a 95grain FMJ FN but only one brand has shot reliably. My daughters Bersa will eat almost anything so there are high penetration (10+ inches) expanding rounds at 90 grain that do the job and she can get 3 shots with great grouping better than the .40

Plenty of good advice here. I agree on finding a good ammo is an important part. I also like Gold Dot.

I've tried maybe 4 or 5 different pocket 380s. The Kahr and Keltec and LCP were a pain to shoot. And more importantly, difficult to shoot accurately past 7 yards or so (for me at least). I know you can question the need for what distance but again to me it goes back to confidence. I also tried a Guardian 380 (nice, way too heavy though). And finally the Diamondback. The DB380 was problematic for me initially, I ended up sending it back, at which point it was wholesale replaced with the latest revision by the factory. Now I have about 300 rounds through it and I'm confident with my ammo it is reliable and accurate out to 20+ yards. Of the 380s I have shot, it is by far the most accurate. But because their early guns had some issues, their rep is a bit sketchy.

I've carried it pocket carry and with a J-hook style IWB in office attire without issue.

Let me know if you want to check it out some time. Maybe we can go hit up a range for the fun of it.

Thanks for all the info guys. I'm more confused than ever now. I read the Bodyguard was a pile when it first came out but now it's supposed to be better. I watched a few youtube videos and the S&W shot better than the Sig did. I want to get like Al said and put the gun in my pocket every day just like the wallet and money clip.
JJ

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Originally Posted by Wirtz

I've carried it pocket carry and with a J-hook style IWB in office attire without issue.

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Jerry, is there a reason you are thinking pocket vs IWB ? Just curious. I've never really even considered a pocket carry...not sure if it's weight gain or just the style of my clothing but no way I could get a gun on target out of my pocket as fast as I could with a IWB holstered weapon - especially if I was moving or crouched (which I damn sure would not be standing still)

You dudes are freaking me out. I should be giving point by for those with CHLs, which appears to be everyone. Bought a Glock 17 two weeks ago and have over 500 rounds through it. Taking my CHL tomorrow.
I would get a Glock 26. I guess I'll be nicer to everyone.

JJ,
I have a Bodyguard .380 you can have.
It's Bevs and she doesn't like it.
I have extras clips that go with it.
Factory box with all the goodies as new.
Box of ammo.
9 rounds thru it.
I've never shot it so no opinion here.
Find your best deal, I'll knock 10% off or so.
Can bring to ECR.

jb

Pocket pistols in my opinion are basically noise makers. As Wirtz said, it is VERY difficult to find one you can hit a broad side of a barn with as they are very awkward in even an average sized man hand. If you can't comfortably get all 4 fingers around the grip, you are going to have problems shooting with any accuracy unless you get a LOT of practice....and by then, your wrist will hurt like hell. Also, keep in mind that if that itty bitty pistol PRINTS through your pants, that is NOT concealed.

Jerry, I would consider wearing shirts untucked and carrying a mid frame or full framed gun in the waste band at your back. It takes some getting used to, especially if you drive laid back like a vato loco but much easier to carry the weapon you feel most comfortable with in eliminating a threat. Another thing to consider is if you are carrying a compact 380 or 9mm, you likely only have 7 or 8 shots. I recently found a Sig 250 in 9mm that carries 17+1. IT's a full frame and Double action only but is my new carry weapon. Don't limit yourself to just 8 weak rounds that you MIGHT hit the threat with.

I just bought Misty a beautiful used CPO Sig 228 (15+1 in 9mm) for our one year anniversary and I LOVE that gun. It's border line too small for my hands but I had a 3" group with it at 30 feet the very first time I shot it. I am a Sig fanatic as we have 7 of them now. Misty also has a 250 compact in .45 and it works very well for concealed carry. you have to be able to shoot well with a Double Action trigger on the 250 and it takes getting used to. I would recommend a 228 if you can find one or the newer 229.

I am also not a fan of the goofy trigger and grip safety's on the XD/Glock/other. The best safety is your finger. It only goes in the trigger guard if you plan to pull the trigger. A physical safety in a stressed situation is a nail in your coffin as you are going to be lucky to get a good grip on it quickly. Crumpacker and I did an ISPC shoot a few weeks ago and one of the tests was a bar fight where you had to pick up a compact gun off the table and shoot at 4 targets about 15 feet away. Sam did pretty well with a buddy's tiny glock but many others had a hard time hitting the targets with their own carry/boot weapons.

only other advice is to practice drawing your weapon once you make the selection. make sure it's smooth and won't get caught on anything. The more second nature it is the less mistakes you will make if and when you need it.

as usual a long winded post.......

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Originally Posted by rpoz27

...one of the tests was a bar fight where you had to pick up a compact gun off the table and shoot at 4 targets about 15 feet away. .

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Sounds interesting...with the gun already out and on the table it kinda sounds like a gun owner's version of an open book test - unless the targets were moving toward you...then its multiple choice - or if they were friend/foe...then it's true/false ;)

started from a position with pool cue in hand at table, knock over a plastic barrel, pick up gun, double tap threat on the ground in front of you, turn to right at 2 o'clock, shoot 12" steel about 20 feet away, turn to 5 o'clock, shoot similar steel, then 6:30 to shoot 3rd steel. Mostly something different than what you usually get to do at the range. Many missed shots...and they only had 6 to start with for 5 required hits.

I have say I see why Wirtz does this stuff. It's very addictive.

Open carry?
How fuzzy are your nuts?
There's alot of talk out there, but I haven't witnessed anyone doing it.


jb

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Originally Posted by rpoz27

Jerry, I would consider wearing shirts untucked and carrying a mid frame or full framed gun in the waste band at your back.

I am also not a fan of the goofy trigger and grip safety's on the XD/Glock/other. The best safety is your finger.

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Not going to disagree, but the likelihood of getting an untucked shirt caught up while reholstering is a common occurrence.
A wad of shirt tail inside the trigger guard as you shove the gun inside the kydex and boom ... there goes your afternoon.

The trigger and grip safeties don;t inerfere with normal operation. A grip safety has been an integral part of a 1911 forever.

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Originally Posted by rpoz27

I have say I see why Wirtz does this stuff. It's very addictive.

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I shot an IDPA match a couple weeks ago with Nick.

I am having to refrain myself from this stuff. Don;t need another vice.

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Originally Posted by mitchntx

Not going to disagree, but the likelihood of getting an untucked shirt caught up while reholstering is a common occurrence.
A wad of shirt tail inside the trigger guard as you shove the gun inside the kydex and boom ... there goes your afternoon.
.

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I wouldn't think most people would re-holster with the IWB in place? Is that really common?
Our family practice has always been holster the weapon (even knives) before placing/moving the holster (in/out of car, etc), whether its on body or in it's *special* place ...it's always seemed safer since a properly fitting holster largely restricts (or completely prevents) accidental trigger movement.

Passed my CHL yesterday. Scored perfect 250 on the shooting test. Maybe I shoot better than I drive.
CHL officer (Harris County Detective) showed us a pic of another 'Training' officer who holstered a Glock. Windbreaker jacket draw string found it's way into the trigger and when attempted to pull the jacket free, POW. Shoots foot. Suggested using a full holster to cover the trigger.

You're right Matt, full size is easier to shoot and more accurate...but that only matters if you have it. I have a commander size 1911 that I carry. It requires a holster with two belt loops, which means getting ready to go involves taking off my belt, arranging the holster through this loop then the pants loop then another loop then the rest...it's a hassle that honestly I think a lot of people including myself avoid if just running out to the corner store. The option of just "grab and go" something that goes in your pocket without even a holster is very convenient. I'm going to try a thin and light semi 9 like a shield with a clip on holster to see if that can become as convenient.

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Originally Posted by mitchntx

The trigger and grip safeties don;t inerfere with normal operation. A grip safety has been an integral part of a 1911 forever.


I shot an IDPA match a couple weeks ago with Nick.

I am having to refrain myself from this stuff. Don;t need another vice.

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A grip safety on a 1911 is FAR more functional than those on the newer guns. the extended grip safety on a 1911 works every time in just about any way you grab it. Get a mediocre pull/grip on one of the "small" grip safety's and there is a chance it might not function. This is why most newer 1911's have extended grip safeties. In the early years, it was a problem with the grip safety was flush with the back of the grip.

The competition stuff is getting addictive but when it's cheaper than ONE SESSION worth of race gas.....it's winning on the addiction front.

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Originally Posted by rpoz27

A grip safety on a 1911 is FAR more functional than those on the newer guns. the extended grip safety on a 1911 works every time in just about any way you grab it. Get a mediocre pull/grip on one of the "small" grip safety's and there is a chance it might not function. This is why most newer 1911's have extended grip safeties. In the early years, it was a problem with the grip safety was flush with the back of the grip.

The competition stuff is getting addictive but when it's cheaper than ONE SESSION worth of race gas.....it's winning on the addiction front.

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Well, Misty .... that's the reason why you get a gun that fits your hand.

You wouldn't grab a pair of shoes that were too small and then complain about the laces not being long enough, would you?

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Originally Posted by rleng1

Passed my CHL yesterday. Scored perfect 250 on the shooting test. Maybe I shoot better than I drive.

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I've got very little race time around you Randy, but ever since you and I went through T10 side-by-side at TWS last year I've considered you a hell of a shoe!