CMC BB posting - Nationals teardown

sorry, I know I've left the great state of Texas, and shouldn't be using this board, but...

this CMC teardown crap at Nationals is really digging at me. i thought Adam's willingness to talk about the elephant on the table was admirable, and expected to see an equally admirable response.

instead, things went from "no teardown, this is CMC" to a locked thread on the CMC BB.

so, I posted my own thread, as follows:
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Sorry Tony and Ryan: all due respect, but you guys don't get it.

You throw a turd on the table like "no teardown, except for rockers..." and then lock the topic?

This is CMC. No teardowns. Period. Matt is absolutely correct: show us all the details, in advance, or put this teardown nonsense back where it belongs.

Normally the camel puts his nose under the flap. In this case, his other end is coming in first. But the result will be the same: no teardown leads to "just take of the head" which leads to God knows what.


-chris
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will be interesting to see if the post lasts...

i took Tony's reply a little different than most seem to have taken it.
i dont see them pulling a head unless alot of things leads them to believe that there is a reason they should. things like lots of TQ in places it shouldnt have it, if blows alot of displacement w/ the whistler..... something along those lines. the only reason to remove a head is to prove displacement.
i also think that the term "no tear down" is more about they are not gonna pick 3 cars @ random each weekend and tear them down. or we cant put up $xxx and request a tear down on a particulare person. what Tony said was - if the results all point to you cheating and a head removal is required to prove it (or disprove) then that is what will happen before an official DQ is handed out.
so if you guys have nothing to worry about, it will never get to the point of a head removal.

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

i took Tony's reply a little different than most seem to have taken it.
i dont see them pulling a head unless alot of things leads them to believe that there is a reason they should. things like lots of TQ in places it shouldnt have it, if blows alot of displacement w/ the whistler..... something along those lines. the only reason to remove a head is to prove displacement.
i also think that the term "no tear down" is more about they are not gonna pick 3 cars @ random each weekend and tear them down. or we cant put up $xxx and request a tear down on a particulare person. what Tony said was - if the results all point to you cheating and a head removal is required to prove it (or disprove) then that is what will happen before an official DQ is handed out.
so if you guys have nothing to worry about, it will never get to the point of a head removal.

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It's like I don't even know you any more ....

what, i cant be born again? :P

Miracles do happen, from time to time ...

dont make me start w/ the biblical swarms a such. i know where you live!
......oh wait, thats Santa Clause, sorry.

look jerry these two chicks are fighting again

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Originally Posted by micah

look jerry these two chicks are fighting again

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It is a never ending thing. Just go work with them a couple of days for proof. :lol:

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Originally Posted by AllZWay

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Originally Posted by micah

look jerry these two chicks are fighting again

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It is a never ending thing. Just go work with them a couple of days for proof. :lol:

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James, your life was in my hands, it can be there again one day. :wink:

Chris I see nothing wrong with Tony's post, if your not illegal you have nothing to worry about, just charge who ever is going to protset my motor enough to offset what gaskets and sealer are going to cost me. The motor that was in my car that I rolled will be in the car that Jerry is preping for nationals, it is strong but nothing in it is illegal. I don't see pulling the heads snowballing into anything more the online post that seem to get blown out of proportion on a regular basis.

Chris is spot on here - this whole thing is crap! Either there is a no tear down rule or there isn't, you cannot have one rule for the regional series all year and another for the nationals abitrarily added in a the 11th hour!

Has anyone stopped to consider the impact of a rule allowing cylinder head removal might affect mod motor guys? And even for pushrod drivers, are all CMC racers, many of whom are newbies to racing, capable of tearing down their engine, let alone put it back together?

I cannot beleive that I am seeing some CMC racers posting up that they do not have a problem with having to remove a cylinder head or that it won't lead to anything else? Get a clue here people - the rules that apply at the nats will almost certainly be adopted for next year - and the prospect of having to wrench on your engine at the end of a weekend when you should be busy loading up the trailer and driving hours to get home should be a VERY daunting one to a group who habiltually prefer to finish racing early Sunday so they can leave early!

Allowing engine tear downs, even partial like a cylinder head, goes COMPLETELY against the grain of the spirit of CMC - which is to provide cheap fun entry level grass roots racing. For the vast majority of CMC competitors, it is either the only affordable way they can go racing, or they simply enjoy the buzz and camaraderie of racing W2W with their buds. I for one am not going to race in any class where I am likely to have to spend hours at the end of a weekend pulling apart my engine for rules compliance reasons - and I'm sure that if I feel that way, many other do to, so a rule like this is likely to kill the very series that has arguably become the foundation and nursery of NASA in our region if not nationally!

I have CMC #33 reserved for next year, but if a tear down or partial tear down comes into play, then that will change real quick to AI33, even if it means I'll be running around at the back of the field because I cannot afford to be competitive!

This is not about cheating either - it's about having rules that befit the class of racing. It does seem that there is an issue with the CMC rules, but a teardown or partial teardown rule is NOT the answer - change what is allowed so people don't need to cheat to meet the power to weight rules - not a hard concept to grasp really is it?

This is YOUR racing series - you own the cars, you do the racing, and you pay your entry fees! It is NOT a dictatorship, even though recent actions like locking threads might indicate otherwise? Stand up and be heard before NASA goes the way of the SCCA - if I'm not mistaken, it was situations very similar to this that lead to NASA being formed in the first place! I hope history is not repeating itself?

Daron, is it your opinion that there will be a hat w/ names drawn from it that will determin who gets a head pulled?
will it be the top 5?
will it be those who run faster lap times than the directors?
or will it be those who's inspections raise more questions than they answer? i think if anyone is asked to remove a head (which is what the problem is here), they will more than likely already have a pending DQ looming over their head. this will just be a last chance effort to make sure they are making the right call.
i do not think they will pull a head in an effort to find something to DQ anyone over.
what is it on your car / a car that your worried will lead to a head removal?
i'm gonna assume that my view is correct on this - that no heads will be removed unless there are things found that leads them to do so. not just a random thing.
Tony????

From what I have read on the subject aside from the fact that they have changed the rules, and that they did this less than 1-month from the event, my question is where is the specific rule regarding the teardown.

Sure Tony has mentioned it, Ryan has mentioned it, and it is published as being part of Nationals but all the "rule" is is speculation of what "might" happen.
My main concern with this "teardown" rule is that none of the competitors know exactly what it means. Do you file a protest and put up $$ for the teardown? Do you just accuse someone? Who pays for it? What if the driver of the car isn't mechanically inclined to do so and feel comfortable about his work?
What if a giant mess happens and the shit that happened at Hallett happens again?

This brings up back to the "C's":
Consistency - Not even close
Communication - The post was locked on the CMC board
Compromise - We'll see how it turns out :?

"ya'll should all come on on over to AI....."



figured I would beat someone to it..... :lol:

Exactly the reason I never even considered CMC. Too many stupid rules and too many stupid... :?:

The whole purpose for a weekend at the track is to race. Tearing down a motor in 100 degree heat, forget that nonsense.

Sounds like drag racing! And everybody knows, drag racing is a drag.

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Originally Posted by AI#97

"ya'll should all come on on over to AI....."



figured I would beat someone to it..... :lol:

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Hahaha, damn AI is gonna be big next year w/ Glenn, Chip, and everyone else. :lol: :lol:
"I was tellin………"

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Originally Posted by michaelmosty

From what I have read on the subject aside from the fact that they have changed the rules, and that they did this less than 1-month from the event, my question is where is the specific rule regarding the teardown.

Sure Tony has mentioned it, Ryan has mentioned it, and it is published as being part of Nationals but all the "rule" is is speculation of what "might" happen.
My main concern with this "teardown" rule is that none of the competitors know exactly what it means. Do you file a protest and put up $$ for the teardown? Do you just accuse someone? Who pays for it? What if the driver of the car isn't mechanically inclined to do so and feel comfortable about his work?
What if a giant mess happens and the shit that happened at Hallett happens again?

This brings up back to the "C's":
Consistency - Not even close
Communication - The post was locked on the CMC board
Compromise - We'll see how it turns out :?

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it's here http://nasachampionships.com/

"view event regulations"

http://www.nasaproracing.com/nc/supps.pdf

jb

If this b.s. doesn't effect you (AI/X) you may be excused for the remainder of the school year. Run along, thank you. Kidding, come back tomorrow.

DC, I'm thinking that most don't appear upset because in a way, it doesn't really effect them. I'm thinking like GL and that unless your pulling everybody like their tied to the cornerworker stand, no red flag/teardown. Then, plus, if it does happen tell them NO.
Simple as that.

jb

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Originally Posted by michaelmosty

Hahaha, damn AI is gonna be big next year w/ Glenn, Chip, and everyone else. :lol: :lol:
"I was tellin………"

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Well shit!!! I must be doing my job!!! Before you know it AI will have our own run group!!! :wink:

Tell them no, then what? That's a long drive to get a DQ for following the letter of the rules and intent of the series.

I've never had to pull a head before. I know it's not all that hard, but I won't be doing it for the first time at National's. Someone else would be taking it apart and putting it back together. Who's paying for parts and labor? Our increased entry fees..

As mentioned, this isn't "I'm legal, so this doesn't concern me". What are the criteria for who gets dinged?
This is the same Hallett BS gone nationwide. Allowing teardown is a slippery slope. Changing series defining rules mid season is total BS.

Glenn, my point is that CMC racers as a whole should not want to let ANY sort of engine tear down. head removal, or what ever you want ot call it creep into the series - PERIOD! EVER! - either at the nationals or the regional races! This type of rule is NOT the solution to the perceived problem of drivers of certain model/engine combos possibly having to bend the rules to get in the ball park of the class power to weight ratio that other model/engine combos seemingly have no trouble doing?

I don't even currently have a complete CMC car, so it's got nothing to do with me being worried about whether there is anything on my car that may prompt a head being removed - it has everything to do with the fact that as a CMC racer, I never want to have to face the prospect of pulling any part of my engine apart after a race meeting, and I personally beleive that it is contrary to the spirit of the class.

To think that if a rule like this is introduced that no one has anything to worry about if they are legal is just plain naive - if a rule exists, it is only a matter of time before someone uses or abuses it!

DC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

Daron, is it your opinion that there will be a hat w/ names drawn from it that will determin who gets a head pulled?
will it be the top 5?
will it be those who run faster lap times than the directors?
or will it be those who's inspections raise more questions than they answer? i think if anyone is asked to remove a head (which is what the problem is here), they will more than likely already have a pending DQ looming over their head. this will just be a last chance effort to make sure they are making the right call.
i do not think they will pull a head in an effort to find something to DQ anyone over.
what is it on your car / a car that your worried will lead to a head removal?
i'm gonna assume that my view is correct on this - that no heads will be removed unless there are things found that leads them to do so. not just a random thing.
Tony????

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Originally Posted by jeffburch

Quote:

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Originally Posted by michaelmosty

From what I have read on the subject aside from the fact that they have changed the rules, and that they did this less than 1-month from the event, my question is where is the specific rule regarding the teardown.

Sure Tony has mentioned it, Ryan has mentioned it, and it is published as being part of Nationals but all the "rule" is is speculation of what "might" happen.
My main concern with this "teardown" rule is that none of the competitors know exactly what it means. Do you file a protest and put up $$ for the teardown? Do you just accuse someone? Who pays for it? What if the driver of the car isn't mechanically inclined to do so and feel comfortable about his work?
What if a giant mess happens and the shit that happened at Hallett happens again?

This brings up back to the "C's":
Consistency - Not even close
Communication - The post was locked on the CMC board
Compromise - We'll see how it turns out :?

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it's here http://nasachampionships.com/

"view event regulations"

http://www.nasaproracing.com/nc/supps.pdf

jb

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All I see is on page 4, at the very bottom:
"ALL classes will be subject to technical inspection for both safety and compliance items, regardless of their class rules. Some disassembly may be required."

This can't be the complete description. :shock:
That sounds like what was put on the feakin box my "Big-Wheel" I got when I was 5. "Some assembly required"

From the CMC site ...

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Originally Posted by JWL-NASA

Gentlemen-

I'm truly sorry that this issue has caused so much stress and strain. I can assure you that the technical inspections at the National Championships will be conducted in the same rational and reasonable manner that we’ve done inspections in every other class in NASA for years and years. We’re not going to publish an absolute set of guidelines that will subject a car to scrutiny as this would effectively undermine the entire process as folks would know how to fly under the radar and those with less than pure motives would certainly exploit this strategy. We will enforce the rules to the best of our ability and we will turn to the CMC leadership as we conduct the inspections to ensure that they are done in the best possible manner. We will also do our best to minimize the pain of the inspection, but you should be prepared to pull a valve cover, header, manifold, or head, or other part if we request that you do so. Our goal is not to find cheaters and “bust” them, but rather to prove to all interested parties that the competitors in the event are running legally and honestly.

So, the sky is not falling and the camel’s nose and ass are both still well outside the tent. As Tony said, show up with a legal car and you have nothing to worry about aside from putting on your best drive to win a championship that can be defended as legitimate because proper scrutiny was applied to ensure your car was indeed legal and your championship genuine.

Thanks and feel free to e-mail me as well offline for further discussion.

-JWL

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So maybe a race strategy would be to pony up the protest forms for teh top 3 or 4 CMC racers, requesting that they be proven legal.

Do so about 2 hours before the main event.

Sure, it would cost sevral hundred bucks. But like Matt said, got to go at this at 110%

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Originally Posted by mitchntx

Sure, it would cost sevral hundred bucks. But like Matt said, got to go at this at 110%

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Don't get me mixed up in that BS!!! :) I am just here to recruit for AI!!! Need more whipping boys in our group! :wink:

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Originally Posted by JWL-NASA

... We will also do our best to minimize the pain of the inspection, but you should be prepared to pull a valve cover, header, manifold, or head, or other part if we request that you do so. Our goal is not to find cheaters and “bust” them, but rather to prove to all interested parties that the competitors in the event are running legally and honestly.

.....As Tony said, show up with a legal car and you have nothing to worry about aside from putting on your best drive ....

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... and possibly spending tme pulling your car apart in a series that has had from the beginning, and still does have a no tear down rule in the class rules! The camels ass is DEFINATELY inside the tent!

Unless they fix the rules so the perception of engine cheating becomes a non-issue and the no tear down rule is set back in concrete, CMC just lost at least one competitor next year! Matt, make room on that AI grid for me! :twisted: