2007 annual dyno results

i had 4 cars getting the annual re-cert. they all were o.k. with the posting of these numbers.
Michael Mosty 228/281
Marshall Mosty 292/302
James Proctor 223/275
Glenn Landrum 227/285 w/ 32mm restrictor plate.

Bryan L was there w/ his future CMC-2 Camaro. car made 298/318 unresrticted and 274/297 restricted.

it was about 35 to 39 degrees the whole time w/ lots of rain. SpeedTek was great to work w/ and allowed us to make quite a few pulls each to get the power dialed in.

i have these dyno certs on file for review if anyone wants to see them.

Glenn, do we take the highest numbers or the average of the three pulls for CMC?

average of 3. all numbers round to the nearest whole number before averaging.

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Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Glenn, do we take the highest numbers or the average of the three pulls for CMC?

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and your numbers were......

Oh, sorry. I left them in my truck which is up at my office.

If I recall correctly, the average would have been about 223/279 give or take a few tenths.

My numbers
CMC: 227.4Hp & 294.0Tq with 32mm plate (3-run average)
unrestricted: 276.7Hp & 318.4 Tq (Max Run)

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Originally Posted by y5e06

My numbers
CMC: 227.4Hp & 294.0Tq with 32mm plate (3-run average)
unrestricted: 276.7Hp & 318.4 Tq (Max Run)

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nice TQ. any tips you could share to get me those 10 ft lbs out of mine?

also, along w/ wanting to get a paper copy of these from you guys to put on file for "just in case", feel free to scan them and email them to me also as i'll also be doing this to the ones i already have. i'll keep them on a USB pocket drive to bring to all the 2007 events. as a matter of fact, i'll have all CMC and possibly AI related documents on this jump drive w/ me @ all times.

"Just in case" of what?? I must be missing something subtle here. :?:

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Originally Posted by Mike Bell

"Just in case" of what?? I must be missing something subtle here. :?:

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put your black helicopter w/ the missing N numbers back on the ground!
this is a "just in case". like @ Nationals, a guy left his dyno sheet @ home and was not able to get on the dyno due to it being booked. turns out, his regional director had collected up copies of these from his drivers and had it there w/ him. saved the guy a DQ.
or, in case your stuff gets rained on while your out on track. instead of re-dyno'ing to get back in compliance, you can just ask me for a copy.
now, if you loose your copy, and that lost copy was a newer version than the one i have and those 2 dont match, you could be in trouble. a perfect example is:
Morgan D certs his car pre-season w/ a 31mm restrictor plate. i get a copy of this from him to put on file. later in the year, he re-certs his car for whatever reason and moves to a 32mm cause the 31mm made less power than before, or he wanted to push the limits more. he then looses the dyno cert w/ the 32mm certification. we tech his car and notice his 32mm does not match the 31mm i have on record for him. i ask him to present a re-cert for the 32mm and he cannot, he's DQ'ed. so along w/ filing a copy w/ me for whatever reason, you must also file a copy of a new cert you are using.
the list goes on and can be applied to both GM and Ford. say a driver goes from a 40 series flowmaster to a 12" bullet style muffler. w/ a dyno cert saying he has a flowmaster and the car having a bullet, he needs to have a new cert, or be faced w/ a DQ. these are the steps we are taking to ensure the tech inspection process tries to prevent and catch "issues". we want to try our best to ensure a level playing field. this will be one of the tools to do so.
feel better Mike? :P

would anyone else like to post thier numbers? i saw David D's post and that sucks ass to find out just 2 weeks prior to now. originally i was pushing to have this about a month ago, so that if issues came up like this, there would be more time to resolve it. knowing David, he's got a spare car somewhere. :wink:

It's the "catch issues" part of your post that I'd like clarified a bit more please. Perhaps this would be an appropriate time to go into detail just what will be done at the track in the 2007 season? I recall Todd mentioning at the Oct. 2006 event what you guys learned/saw at Nationals regarding the timing and fuel pressure on the dyno sheets. Sounded logical back then. Why not spell it all out up front so we know what to expect and how it will be conducted?

Otherwise, this sounds like "I'm from the Govt and I'm here to help" lol.

I can hear those black helo's overhead now...

this has nothing to do w/ nationals and the fuel pressure issues on the tech sheet.
here in the TX region, Todd allowed the fuel pressure part of the tech form to have an "N/A" in it if the car did not have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. my car is this way. if its not adjustable, its not worth measuring cause we couldnt change it if we wanted. well the tech guys @ nationals didnt agree w/ that and thus our tech sheets were not legal due to being filled out incorrectly. we all made a mad dash for the dyno. this was on thursday and the national event racing started friday morning.

by "catch issues" - i mean, this info will be used to aid in esuring no one is cheeting. we all wanted better tech inspection in 2006. NASA TX has proven they cant handle it, so it will be placed upon us to ensure we tech cars to the point that we all feel no-one is cheeting. what does that mean? i dont know. but keeping a copy of your dyno paperwork on file would a good place to start. keeping this on file came about for the every first reason i stated in my original post on this subject - just in case something happens to your copy and you cant produce it when asked to by anyone - not just myself, i'll have a copy for you. all the directors (4 of us) will have this info. so at no point in the season will it not be available to you. there is a happy medium between "every car makes a dyno pull in impound after each and every qual and race", to the total lack of rules inspection we have seen in the past.
this is all part of trying to do a better job than NASA TX and a better job than we have in the past.

Thanks for the explanation behind the new request. However, I respectfully disagree with the reasoning on this one if you are not using it to enforce fuel pressure and/or timing from the dyno sheet.

The rules are clear, produce the current dyno sheet. Make a change that affects the previous dyno results, get a new dyno pull. None of this is new. I think it has been demonstrated time and again that the Texas AI/CMC racers can reproduce their respective legality on subsequent dyno pulls.

My main concern is the procedure to be used. So that we know the how of what is going to happen. The stories from Hallett last year I think demonstrate the need for both tech inspectors and the participant to have a clear understanding of the procedures PRIOR to the event.

Mike please call me when you get a chance. i think we are saying the same thing in a different way.
214-869-9603

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

Mike please call me when you get a chance. i think we are saying the same thing in a different way.
214-869-9603

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Headed out the door, will call you after lunch.

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

there is a happy medium between "every car makes a dyno pull in impound after each and every qual and race", to the total lack of rules inspection we have seen in the past.

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A total lack of rules inspection?? No. Not just no, but hell no. There most certainly was series tech, Glenn - your comment is inaccurate.

Let's keep in mind that when series tech was performed, it ended with someone becoming unhappy, going to NASA Texas to complain. Anyone remember the email Jay and Shannon sent out prior to the 2005 TWS event? They removed tech from the series directors hands because the racers were unhappy. After an event or two, the racers realized NASA Texas wasn't performing any series tech besides weighing people. The complaints started anew.

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Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Perhaps this would be an appropriate time to go into detail just what will be done at the track in the 2007 season? I recall Todd mentioning at the Oct. 2006 event what you guys learned/saw at Nationals regarding the timing and fuel pressure on the dyno sheets. Sounded logical back then. Why not spell it all out up front so we know what to expect and how it will be conducted?

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Procedures shouldn't much change at all, save for the Series Directors being able to actually do their job without the NASA Texas safety tech inspectors/Regional Directors interfering, and completely destroying the tech process/series integrity in the process when they show their unfamiliarity with the series rules.

Your comment about knowing what is going to be done at the track - no way should that be announced prior to any event. Doing so gives people the ability to make changes to items that haven't been announced that are going to be inspected.

The whole idea of a series compliance/tech inspection is to be able to check any item at any time to help keep the playing field level. That's how it was handled at the Nats - you never knew what was going to be inspected until the Series Directors asked you to look at something/broke out a measuring tape/crawled under the car/crawled under the dash/crawled under the hood ( yes, they did ALL of those things ).

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Originally Posted by Adam Ginsberg

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

there is a happy medium between "every car makes a dyno pull in impound after each and every qual and race", to the total lack of rules inspection we have seen in the past.

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A total lack of rules inspection?? No. Not just no, but hell no. There most certainly was series tech, Glenn - your comment is inaccurate.

Let's keep in mind that when series tech was performed, it ended with someone becoming unhappy, going to NASA Texas to complain. Anyone remember the email Jay and Shannon sent out prior to the 2005 TWS event? They removed tech from the series directors hands because the racers were unhappy. After an event or two, the racers realized NASA Texas wasn't performing any series tech besides weighing people. The complaints started anew.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Perhaps this would be an appropriate time to go into detail just what will be done at the track in the 2007 season? I recall Todd mentioning at the Oct. 2006 event what you guys learned/saw at Nationals regarding the timing and fuel pressure on the dyno sheets. Sounded logical back then. Why not spell it all out up front so we know what to expect and how it will be conducted?

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Procedures shouldn't much change at all, save for the Series Directors being able to actually do their job without the NASA Texas safety tech inspectors/Regional Directors interfering, and completely destroying the tech process/series integrity in the process when they show their unfamiliarity with the series rules.

Your comment about knowing what is going to be done at the track - no way should that be announced prior to any event. Doing so gives people the ability to make changes to items that haven't been announced that are going to be inspected.

The whole idea of a series compliance/tech inspection is to be able to check any item at any time to help keep the playing field level. That's how it was handled at the Nats - you never knew what was going to be inspected until the Series Directors asked you to look at something/broke out a measuring tape/crawled under the car/crawled under the dash/crawled under the hood ( yes, they did ALL of those things ).

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Adam, i never said it was you or Todd who was responsible for the total lack of rules inspection. you assume i was talking about you. but you verified what i did say. in your reply you admitted it.

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After an event or two, the racers realized NASA Texas wasn't performing any series tech besides weighing people.

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why do you assume this is not what i was talking about? my comment was intirely accurate, as was proven to be so by your very own statement. take the chip off your shoulder and put it away. it's not all about you. my comments were directed @ NASA TX and NASA TX only. Adam, by you taking every little word i say as being directed towards you, will make for a very long season. what was done by the series directors in the past is not being addressed by myself @ this time.

guys, none of this stuff we are talking about has been the norm. but it is what should have been done. by doing it now we are trying to get back on track. i spoke w/ Mike today. we both understand each other alot more clearly now and he understands what is being done.

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Originally Posted by Adam Ginsberg

The whole idea of a series compliance/tech inspection is to be able to check any item at any time to help keep the playing field level. That's how it was handled at the Nats - you never knew what was going to be inspected until the Series Directors asked you to look at something/broke out a measuring tape/crawled under the car/crawled under the dash/crawled under the hood ( yes, they did ALL of those things ).

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this is the very thing we are trying to do. but i have to have the info from the driver in order to check it. can i rely on the racers paperwork? yes. but i'll still collect and record the same info as if you sent me a copy of it. by sending it to me, it allows me to input and save the data at my leasure and not @ the track while i'm trying to do rules compliance checks on 30 cars. its all about efficiency.

Hey Adam,

I'm talking about PROCEDURES. See anything in my post that says "warn guys about which item will be checked ahead of time"???? I sure don't. :roll:

I'm talking about HOW things will be checked. They very thing you and Daron went ballistic about not being done properly last summer.

It's no secret that I say what's on my mind.

Glenn - you were very general with your statement regarding "the total lack of rules inspection we have seen in the past". That's what caught my attention, and it didn't sit well with me. My bad if I misinterpreted what you were saying.

Same for you, Mike.

Time for me to stop hanging around this place. Too many skeletons in the closet, and a few extemely bad memories that cloud the excellent ones.

not a problem Adam. lets just move on. i'm sure i'm not planning to do anything you havent already tried to do yourself. only thing different now, is NASA TX was given enough rope to hang themselves, and they almost did. now they are more willing to give into what the directors want as they know they cant do it all. we cant either, but together ....... blah blah blah, hugs and kisses.

Adam, just get back to the track and do what you told me too, have fun. if your here to win it all, your here for the wrong reasons. i was here to have fun last year, and i did. i'm here this year to do the same.

i could have been all bent out of shape over my DQ in '05. i desided to come back in '06 and just do my thing and all would be o.k. . well i did, and it was. do the same. come out, do your rain dance and see me walk away from the group. :wink: w/ all the stress of being a series director removed, you should have no problem comming back and having fun. set the example for all those you preached the same advice too. i want you @ the track as many others do too.

Yeah, come back and we'll enjoy some of that Landrum blue gatorade!!

:lol: :lol:

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

would anyone else like to post thier numbers? i saw David D's post and that sucks ass to find out just 2 weeks prior to now. originally i was pushing to have this about a month ago, so that if issues came up like this, there would be more time to resolve it. knowing David, he's got a spare car somewhere. :wink:

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Well, this is my own fault. I should have started looking at my car sooner, I had problems at Houston and parked the car thinking everything was fixed.

The same gremlins from MSRH came back and engine just could not roll the drum on the dyno. The heads are off, I have verified that the CAM is okay, I now need to check a few other things and have the heads checked out.

I will do what I can to make the event with the car, but at this point it does not look too good. I'm still kicking myself for not looking at this sooner.

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

knowing David, he's got a spare car somewhere. :wink:

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Spare car? 8)

If anyone wants an outsider's perspective that does not have any idea what old issues you are talking about...here you go:

I am building my CMC car with the expectation that it could, and would be randomly inspected. I also am building it with the expectation that if I or more likely someone wins any race by an absurd margin that is not explainable, the car will be sealed until a dyno can be performed.

This almost happened to me in another class, so i figured it would be more common place in CMC due to the narrow differences in the cars.

It seems that these measures are in place with the intent to make everyone honest and open.

I hope that this is what the class is. That is what I am expecting. I gave up running a Corvette because much of the performance was dictated by dollars as much, if not more than skill.

I hope to see everyone at the track. I will not make the first event in Houston...to many honeydoos and a motor still on the stand. But when I do get the car to the track, everyone is welcome to look at it and marvel at the masterful skills (based on my 3 year old crew chief's assessment) that I used building it. I will have nothing to hide whether I am in last or first place, and I thought that was the intent of the class.

i think your insite is spot on. your expectation on inspections in CMC are what i expected when i came to the series back in '05. we saw what the tech guys did @ Mid Ohio. we talked w/ other regional directors about what they do. 2006 was a total flop. not because CMC/AI directors didnt care, but because they had thier hands tied. leasons have been learned and we will follow what had been the norm for all other regions. you are correct in thinking that if a car suddenly flat walks away from the core group of drivers, an investigation will follow. for the most part (alot of the most part) any and all racers will tell you exactly what thier set-up is and help you get your car there. we all would love to see 100 car fields running w/in .10 seconds of each other. we want close competition plain and simple. CMC is a total drivers series. the playing field is even amoung makes and the money is almost completely removed.

I was impounded for dyno twice in '06.
Had Mike Plum crawling around under my dash.
Stovall tore into my front breather.
Adam had the front wheels off poking around.
Todd made me jack up the car and had a poke under it.
At Hallett NASATX violated my sweetie (#3) in several unmentionable ways.

Big Deal. Welcome to CMC.

jb

and mark my words, i plan to apply this evenly to every car who runs w/ AI/CMC TX. so evenly in fact, i have an excel spreadsheet w/ each drivers name down one colum and the rule number across the top. each time a car is checked, it will be recorded in this file. i plan to check every car for every rule i can @ random intervals till each car has been checked. will you be checked more than once? yep. but everyone will be checked. plan on it. dont fight it.
and yes, my name is on this list. the list of names will come from the points spreadsheet. it will be available for review for anyone at any time.

I am sort of an outsider also, and I totally agree with Ledfoot.

My expectation coming into the series was to be heavily scrutinized and rightfully so.

I raced in a series that was way and this keeps competition close and more affordable.

Lets go racing and have some fun. Being mired in the political stuff seems to be no fun at all.

I hope to see everyone there at the first event. My pit will have a no BS sign so step on across if you are looking for some fun. Jab, poke and posture all ya want just as long as you have fun.

There is really no information regarding any talent scouts from F1 or NASCAR that will be attending the event. So, everyone can now concentrate on having fun with all the other competitors.

FUN! 8)

For the record, In AI the only "SERIES" inspections I had all year other than weights were front track width at Cresson and Todd looked under the rearend of the car at TWS....for what I have no idea especially for AI. Honestly, the lack of verification of dyno numbers or any other items in AI for the most part would be considered appauling by someone running a series like A/S or even CMC. I am sort of surprised no one asked to seal my hood in October...Maybe you are all just acknowledging my badass skillz?!! :lol:

Eric, I too bless your sentiment about having fun. The whole competition thing and the political BS seems to be not worth it.

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

i had 4 cars getting the annual re-cert. they all were o.k. with the posting of these numbers.
Michael Mosty 228/281
Marshall Mosty 292/302
James Proctor 223/275
Glenn Landrum 227/285 w/ 32mm restrictor plate.

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Damn, Marshall may have to ADD weight to his tub!!!! good job!

remember Matt, in 2006 NASA TX had (took) the responsibility of AI/CMC rules enforcement. anything Todd and Adam did w/ regards to that was above and beyond what was required of them.

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

remember Matt, in 2006 NASA TX had (took) the responsibility of AI/CMC rules enforcement. anything Todd and Adam did w/ regards to that was above and beyond what was required of them.

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Ok, so I will not be submitting a dyno sheet this year because NASA TX never asked for one.... :roll: Only thing they checked was front track width and my submarine belt attachment. I might as well have been running AIX with Armstrong... :P According to your statement, Todd was just checking out my rearend for fun then....?! and yes, I am worried about Todd! :wink:


actually, I take that back. I gave them one during the annual tech...but nothing ever after that...they just went off the sticker for weight.

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Originally Posted by AI#97

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

i had 4 cars getting the annual re-cert. they all were o.k. with the posting of these numbers.
Michael Mosty 228/281
Marshall Mosty 292/302
James Proctor 223/275
Glenn Landrum 227/285 w/ 32mm restrictor plate.

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Damn, Marshall may have to ADD weight to his tub!!!! good job!

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Since Marshall is in France on business I'll address this statement. Marshall did say at the dyno that his minimum weight can be ~2775, he has about 35 more lbs. to pull out.
He said something about going to 13 X 5 wheels and 175/70/13's. He thinks this will get to his minimum weight goals. :? :lol:

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Originally Posted by AI#97

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

remember Matt, in 2006 NASA TX had (took) the responsibility of AI/CMC rules enforcement. anything Todd and Adam did w/ regards to that was above and beyond what was required of them.

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Ok, so I will not be submitting a dyno sheet this year because NASA TX never asked for one.... :roll: Only thing they checked was front track width and my submarine belt attachment. I might as well have been running AIX with Armstrong... :P According to your statement, Todd was just checking out my rearend for fun then....?! and yes, I am worried about Todd! :wink:


actually, I take that back. I gave them one during the annual tech...but nothing ever after that...they just went off the sticker for weight.

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no Matt, that means Todd inspected something even though he was not reqiured to because NASA TX said they would take the responsibility for this. i think someone from NASA TX asked for his help in doing an inspection for a particulare item. i know what Todd was looking for cause i asked him. you didnt ask?

glad this thread stayed on the topic of dyno numbers and getting the required paperwork on file w/ the directors. :)

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

. i know what Todd was looking for cause i asked him. you didnt ask?

glad this thread stayed on the topic of dyno numbers and getting the required paperwork on file w/ the directors. :)

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I did and just got a "just taking a look".... so you tell me. Was it the fact my exhaust was 1.5" off the ground and making sparks.

Oh, here is another good one I remembered. In Houston, they impounded AI/CMC after qual on Sunday....well, I came in early from the session weighed and went back to my pit having never been told to be impounded...they were checking ride heights...looks like I had the 10 minute opportunity to change mine so I could be legal! :wink:

What needs to happen is we all collectively start bitching about the rules and turn into a bunch of rule book beating and preaching assholes or just accept the honor system, run what we bring and stop worrying about it because TO DATE, there hasn't been any hardline enforcement of the rules OR the manpower or know how to do it.

Oh, and I have been taking Richard's advice on reading the huge holes in the AI rules... No F'n wonder AI is getting so expensive!!!! :shock:

as a racer i knew this info, so as a racer i'll give it too you. illegal ballast.

you are taking a step closer to CMC each and every day.

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

as a racer i knew this info, so as a racer i'll give it too you. illegal ballast.

you are taking a step closer to CMC each and every day.

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Only ballast in my car is my fat ass....don't waste your time looking for it! :wink:

My car had the rear end looked at during the first event in a good faith effort to start off the year doing “something.” I have no idea what they were looking for or if they would have known anything was wrong if they saw it.

Mid year, my hood was sealed and the car was taken to a dyno facility for testing. I'm great with that but the lack of good procedures unfortunately made it a bit of a joke.

The drawing of names on Saturday to see who is going to get their hoods sealed after the second race on Sunday is a really bad idea. I mentioned that every time we did it but the procedure somehow never changed.

The compliance of the dyno numbers is of course based on weight. At most events weights were never recorded for any competitor. The only reason I had a weight to go off of for my dyno check is because I pointed this out at the end of the last race that weekend. At the dyno, not even the simplest of checks were made for the easy cheats.

Of course my dyno experience was much better than the joke of sealing hoods at Hallett where there were no scales in attendance. That was a waste of money since there was no way to prove anyone illegal…

At the last event, my car was checked for ride height. Again, that’s great but it was done on an uneven/unlevel surface making the measurement useless. That was frustrating since an appropriate surface was less than 15 feet away…

I’m encouraged by Glenn’s plans. I’m hopeful tech will actually be done and will be done fairly and consistently.

Richard P.