If you would like to send the track General Manager a note with opinions regarding T17, please send an e-mail to:
al at msrhouston dot com
attn: Mr. Mitchell
Several notes have already been sent his way.
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If you would like to send the track General Manager a note with opinions regarding T17, please send an e-mail to:
al at msrhouston dot com
attn: Mr. Mitchell
Several notes have already been sent his way.
done.
From Al Mitchell:
"Thank you for your input. The asphalt is the same asphalt that has been in turns 16 and 17 for the previous two NASA races. As to the turn 17, the turn has always exited against the pit wall. The fact that turn 17 is now narrower limits the speed through the turn and reduces the contact angle against the pit wall. All tracks have corners that have limited room on exit i.e. TWS, TMS, Mid-Ohio, etc, fortunately we just have one. Being an observer of most all the incidences in 17, they were always precipitated by a vehicle going off and electing to come back on the track directly in the line, showing little or no courtesy for fellow drivers. We do appreciate your comments, as we continue to strive to keep MSRHouston one of the safest tracks in North America.
Sincerely,
Al Mitchell"
Another e-mail address: [email protected]
When is the next scca event there?
One of you locals maybe need to attend, observe and report back here regarding the happiness of those competitors after the event.
My money says a reconfig of that end of the track is inevitable.
Plus imagine having a problem with your car and you need to pit.
That pit entrance makes me nervous so I'm gonna watch to my left the track as I make my way on the little entrance road.
But wait, the hans device limits my head turning this far so I have to just pray no car finds my left door.
Call me Reuben Feffer.
jb
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMC17
Yea, that would be part of it. That's also a function of course design. A big mud bath right next to the most dangerous corner is probably not the best plan.
The other part of it would be the tires. As soon as the first person goes into the tires, the stored water is sprayed onto the track so the rest of the field can follow them in. It's contagious.
Strangely enough, both of these conditions (bath and tires) existed before the wall was moved and I don't ever remember an issue even when people did go off and drag stuff back onto the track...
It would be really cool if they just moved the wall back to where it was.
Richard P.
Is it just me or does it seem that "Al Mitchell" is showing not only no sympathy but also no desire to resolve a "frustrating" (edited previous word) situation?Quote:
Originally Posted by CMC17
Your thoughts???
They way he worded his response....that was the first thing that came to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelmosty
I expect him to break out the "Shut up and Drive" T-shirts that Eddie Gossage made for TMS back in 1997. :roll:
email sent. I'll post my email and reply when I get a response. I tried to be diplomatic.
My second reponse to Al wasn't very diplomatic and looks like he's flat- lining me now. The last thing I want to see is someone either within this group or any group for that matter seriously injured when it can be prevented/minimized.
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelmosty
You are correct. Mr Mitchell doesnt have any regard for the Non F1 players at MSRH.
I have had dealings in the past and I have always hung up the phone frustrated and pissed off. What a Moron. I have never ever seen such a tight exit with mud and water at any track ever. When I helped build a Shifter track in Austin, we wrapped the tire walls in heat shrink so that when someone hit them, they would not spray water all over the track and cause the next driver to hit them. We also made sure that tire walls were a last resort by placing them as far away as possible. He has obviously not spent any time behind the wheel of a car that he has built and values.
They will only value NASA tx and our group when we are gone and they are broke $, oh wait they already are broke.
I am sorry the engineers were too ignorant to give the track a clear corner exit and a large pit road. That is terrible. However, if you have to choose between hitting something on pit road at 5mph or wrecking at corner exit into a grabby tire wall at 75mph, what should we choose. It is absolutely ridiculous that we even have to have this discussion. This defies anything resmbling logic. CRAZY.
I can only think of two at TWS that are remotely limited, T9 and T15. Wall impacts after T15 are pretty uncommon, and supposedly the tire wall at the exit of T9 is going to be moved back because ...da da dum... people were hitting it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CMC17
Hey Guys-
I have been reading this thread and have been having some of the same thoughts as y'all. The next SCCA event there is the Double National Feb 16-18. I'll try to get down there and report back on this particular topic after the weekend but if I don't make it I will definately give some drivers a call that I know will be there and get their views.
Don't forget that in addition to all the melee in turn 17 this past weekend, a SM flipped there after hitting that tire wall at our race in October.
I'm on board and agree with y'all 100% and will do whatever I can to help find a solution.
A
I'll be the first to say that I won't go back to MSR-H until they move the wall... and I'm not going to budge on that statement! :!:
SCCA is a part owner now.
Also, CART has an open practice soon.
The week prior to the GP in H.
Is it CART or OWRS?
jb
Here are my notes on the subject:
1) First & Foremost...we should be able to drive whatever track that we're provided with. (See my Charles Darwin quote on adapting to change.)
Now...with that said, here are my other comments:
2) NASA TX is aware and Al and I had an extensive conversation with Jay & Shannon regarding the collective concerns of AI/CMC/GPC at the close of the weekend.
3) I almost smacked the wall on Saturday morning when I first went out because there really was no mention of the change and I planned to navigate that turn like I normally have the dozen times I've been there before. (I also had to adapt to the T1 changes with the more restrictive entrance.)
4) Having the tire wall there is akin to a street course. There are courses in road racing where every turn is like T17....track and K-wall. Let's not paint ourselves into a corner stating that we'll never run that type of a configuration.
5) Entry level pro-racing/club-racing and especially HPDE really could use a little more safety margin. Street course setups aren't for the faint of heart.
6) Lastly....I really think RP hit the nail on the head. Anyone can easily ignore all my points above but the root cause of the issue really lies with 1) the mud/sediment at the apex...and 2) the subsequent water from the infield runoff and water stored in those tires.
As the weekend went on, the conditions in that turn deteriorated. It was manageable on Saturday morning...but as soon as someone went off it made the turn tricky....then, as soon as the 1st person hit the tires...the turn was wet AND dirty...making it REALLY tricky.
Combine the (now) dirty track...with the wet track....with the closer tire wall and [presto chango] we've got a chain of errors. In and of themselves, each condition is not that much of a problem because the "chain is broken". But put all those things together...and we all have a problem.
In order to break the error chain, one or more of these things needs to happen:
1) We as racers have to take responsibility for running off track (creating debris) Let's face it, they're making changes to the track in order to scrub speed and prevent us from running off track.
2) The track needs to take responsibility for preventing the water on track. (infield ground runoff and/or water from tires)
3) Move the tires back and provide more margin for error if neither #1 or #2 aren't going to happen.
Let's face it...there's no problem with a clean T17 the way it sits now if everyone stays on track, there isn't any water/debris there and no-one hits the tires, right? :wink: :lol:
Break the chain....break the chain...break the chain.
<<I kinda like chanting after that banquet!>>
Just my opinion...posted as a racer, not a director.
-=- Todd
i'm really glad to see we all agree on this 100% and we are having a nice open dialog on this.
there needs to be lots of holes drilled or cuts made into those tires to stop them from holding water. this should be done prior to making a tire wall out of them.
sorry for the mud i drug on the track. i guess if i was going into that corner @ 10/10ths, i too would have hit the wall. how about they just pave that whole area w/ the mud over.
Todd,Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Covini
I understand your point but why not make a track safer for everyone.
How many incidents did we have last year at MSR-H w/ the wall at T-17? None that I can think of. Now after they change the placement we have three people that hit the wall just in our group alone.
People hit wall = BAD, no people hit wall = GOOD
If the ability is there to make a change, why not do it?? I know I'm new to the game but this seems like a no-brainer to me.
There was a Spec Miata that flipped in the tire wall at the October event, as well as, other people that hit it in the other events. The driver of the SM is a very experienced driver, so it happens to the best of us(?). I track out right next to the wall and never had a problem until the surface condition changed. Only once did it get too close for comfort. The wall was moved to allow for more pit spaces at the SCCA enduro last year. Track surface condition is the real problem with that part of the track. If you happened to notice, the tire bundles on grid had slits and water in them. I would rather have the wall extended around to help separate pit lane than have the wall moved back. However, both would be nice.
Let me wade in here ...
After experiencing what 2 wheels off debris from a leading car would do to me entering 16 and the subsequent spin down pit road (see 2006 hi-lite reel) I vowed that day that I wouldn't run at Houston ever again. And I won't. It's just too dangerous.
A NASA-Tx season championship just isn't worth wrecking my car or sustaining injury. Marshall/Eric, would you agree or disagree?
With 10 cars in the run group, 3 sustained damage. Imagine 30 cars ...
Seeing the lack of respect the track shows to the paying customer drives the point home.
I think the reasons behind a low car count this weekend are now fairly obvious.
Advertising itself as a "country club" where the well-to-do bring out their toys to play, how can they justify track conditions that risk expensive exotic cars and high roller players?
It sounds like a business model hell bent on disaster.
Todd, I see your points ... honestly I do. But this is a clear cut case of safety for the racers and the crew working the event.
Let's put it in different terms ... If there was a driver on the track that caused 3 accidents would we collectively shrug our shoulders and say, "It's racing?" Would the track say something to Shannon about it?
Why is it "shut up and race" when the racers see the facility creating a hazard?
James, I was with Gossage and even have one of those shirts. But I see things a little differently now.
I agree that it is nice to have agreement and a nice dialog, but sometimes a nice open dialog may not get the job done. A more emphatic or down-right mean course of action may be required. The nice letters and note sent so far seem to be falling on deaf ears.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
Before they moved the wall - some incidents.
After they moved the wall - a BUNCH of unnecessary incidents.
Seems pretty clear to me.
Rob, i was talking about amoung us.
Anyone have any pics of the new wall and other changes to MSRH?
It will be interesting to see how the SCCA races go in a couple weeks - it would be ironic if the changes that they themselves requested caused multiple incidents that results in them requesting that it be changed back again - we can only hope. Kevin Mixon will be there and can report if Adrian can't make it?
And what about DE orgs? That track isn't going to be very popular with any of them if folks in street cars start smacking that wall on a regular basis! :shock:
It might be worth keeping in mind that if the track does not fix it, NASA TX might be able to do something with a bunch of cones to alter the corner and make it safer - I haven't seen it so I have no idea what is possible, but it has been done before and it is worth looking into if we have no other alternative?
I know, but it seemed like the nice tone was carrying over to Al Mitchell with less than desireable results.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
Guys,
Let's get a collective effort up and work as a group thru NASA TX. We'll have more clout as customers of NASA TX...and then NASA TX as customers of MSRH.
Who wants to put together a strong draft letter to represent all the interests of the group?
-=- Todd
PS- This will be far more effective than a bunch of individual letters which get shorter & shorter responses from the track. The SCCA races will be very telling.
Chris Lyons is good w/ all that legal mumbo jumbo.
I volunteer ...
Here's the first draft ...
**********************
Dear Al,
Your track sucks.
Area body shop owners like it, though.
Cordially,
Cat Lover
***********************
Feel free to edit ...
8)
Um, Mitch... What was that award you got at the banquet??? I'm having a hard time remembering... :roll: :D
Richard P.
Just keeping the bar high, Richard.
A voice definitely needs to be heard Todd.
I think you are on the right track. We should also address the complete indifference of the mgmt.
If I owned that track and I had ten paying customers tear up their cars because I didnt have time/ energy to go get in my skid steer and move the wall back 15 ft before the race then I would be more than active in addressing these concerns.
This is really more than just concerns , this is blatant disregard for driver safety. I cannot think of one reason to have that wall there for normal races or country club. With that in mind, why is it there? It is not difficult to move, I could rent the equipment and move it myself in a few hours.
Why werent the drivers made aware of the new danger?
Why didnt ANYONE from the track come and see the carnage in our pits????
Why was it so slippery? why is there always a pond at the end of that corner? Why were the tires full of water? why ? why ? why? why oh why, please for humanity!!!
If I was running MSRH, you can bet your A$$ I would have been in the pits
talking to drivers and finding solutions.
Truth is, you cant find solutions when only half the party cares about the outcome. If they do not move the wall for SCCA then they are setting themselves up for some serious liability. We are very lucky that ten people hit the wall and none were seriously injured. What would we say if someone left on a stretcher??
As a business man, I cant see eye to eye with these people at all and frankly it is really getting under my skin.
Here is the email I sent to the Mr. Mitchell yesterday. I have not yet heard a response.
Mr. Michell,
I would like to provide some personal input regarding the track configuration utilized during the Feb. 3-4 NASA TX event with particular attention paid specifically to turns 16 & 17. I was one of the numerous unlucky drivers to contact the tire barrier on the "revised" section of race track.
I believe that the issues during the recent weekend would be minimized and/or eliminated if the K-wall was moved back to it's previous position as it was at the last NASA TX event in October 2006. The additional runoff room provided was helpful in keeping a car under control if there was the situation that debris (dirt, mud, water, etc) was brought onto the track. Under the current configuration, in my opinion, there is clearly not enough room to regain control of the car in order to minimize the risk of injury and damage to the driver and vehicle.
My specific incident was not caused by going off-track and coming back onto the racing line prior to impact. My vehicle lost grip on the asphalt in T17 due to debris on the track. The loss of traction did not allow for sufficient correction prior to contacting the tire wall and causing significant damage to my vehicle.
If you can please consider this request to return the pit wall to it's previous location, I'm certain that many racers would choose to return to your facility.
On a completely separate note, I believe that your track is a very dynamic, challenging circuit. I have been to your track with NASA numerous times within the last year and hopefully will return when my vehicle is repaired
so what is the input from the other racing class's? HPDE?Quote:
Originally Posted by Racebrat
And he, quite literally, means people. Coupla motorcycle guys separated from their rides during a race, slid under the airbag wall, and contacted tires and metal feet first. Lots of broken bones.Quote:
Originally Posted by MCain
TWS is taking it seriously and has made plans to move the wall back with CMRA and other bike organizations input. At the last MSC, the guys that are going to do the work were out assessing the area.
A track layout change, like what was done with Turn 17, shouldn't be made solely to increase the comfort of a customer in the pits. A change that significant should be made only in the interest of increased safety to all concerned and with all aspects of increased safety addressed. Telling people to slow down through 17 is good advice and all, but crap happens. I know there was debris all through that corner during the GPC, etc. race. We had a gap about 3/4 of a car width and a foot or so off the apex that was relatively debris free and you had to keep it tight coming out of 16 for entry ,as well, because the entire outside of the track covered with chunks.
Yep, T9 scares the hell outta me.
My fault for walking the track back in '85.
jb
Trash on the track nearly ALL the time, problem, track design problem, I don't really think so.
If MSR-H had had turns 16 & 17 set up this way since they first opened the track would there be all this? I think it is the fact that it changed.
Don't get me wrong, dirt and water on the track are a big hazard in 16 & 17 and should be fixed.
For everyone that went to Mid Ohio, remember turn 11, if you are running 10/10ths, don't pinch the corner, and run the CORRECT line you have 6 feet at track out from the concrete wall, put 2 off at track out and you are into a concrete barrier. But, that was how it was set up when we got there, and we just dealt with it. And just for the record, some 11 cars got into that wall in the week we were there and suffered some major damage.
Don't blast me, just my opinion.
Dave
All tracks have their problem areas, it is up to us a drivers to be aware and adapt... remember the video posted just last year where the BMW got airbourn do to the new access road at Mid Ohio??? as to the cuts in the tires, Cooper did that to prevent the tires from being stolen and used on MY pickup... opps did I say that... Really tho the tires were purchased by or donated to Champcar... I went to the track yesterday and testing has already begunQuote:
Originally Posted by Waco Racer
Jason and Cousin Todd ran the Neon for a total of 13 sessions and had no problems... HOWEVER they were not racing for position or "racing" at all for that matter... I, on the other hand, went out for two sessions first one was spent in the mud after sliding all the way to the tire wall, the second almost resulted in contact with the infamous wall @ 17 when I attempted to beat Jason's fast lap for the weekend... He won :evil:Quote:
Originally Posted by oz98cobra
Opinions from those that weren't racing last weekend hold little to no merit IMHO. Ten cars were damaged within minutes/hours at that same location and it's still not perfectly clear there is a problem? Unless you experienced it last weekend in a racing environment, then you guys have no idea what it was like.
Round of "I told you so" will be in order next time out from the stands. Have fun out there...but not me, it's too dangerous for those that are actually racing.
I've been on that track several times, no, I wasn't there last weekend, but this track is not new to me.
Rookie driver in a Miata got in to the wall at 17, he was driving one of MY cars, his words "I tried to drive the same line as in October and it didn't work".
You don't have to be there in your "racing environment" to know what happened "IMHO" as you put it.
Just trying to lengthen the post;
1st, I can not attend the SCCA Double National because the SCCA has rendered my Corvette unraceable without thousands of dollars spent to make it slower and heavier. B Prepared was supposed to be "Club WCGT" but they had to through in some "Extras."
Just a note, many of the legandary older tracks that have "Death Walls" are removing them and changing the tracks to make them safer.
Yup, Road Atlanta is one.
Seems as though the AMA Superbikes have some considerable influence these days.
jb