DQ's

[ShadowBolt]

I know I'm new to this racing junk but why would a driver be DQ'ed for passing under yellow. Since I have been racing there have been several violations (like passing under double yellow) and I can't recall anyone getting DQ'ed (maybe I'm wrong)? Why would we want to take a racers season away? I know the rules are there to protect us but if we alienate the racers with penalties that take them out of the season points race they may leave us for the balance of the season and find out they no longer need CMC in their lives. The flagging was fucked up this weekend and I don't see this being something to take a guys season away for. In R2 we were getting the yellow for a car off in between 1 and 2. At the corner worker station at turn 2 I was getting told to slow down by a guy flailing his arms wildly! I did not slow down at his station.....why would I? Had I gone off I could have hit the car already off track. I think Mitch went off close to where he was. I think this should have been done differently to slow us down through that whole 1, 1A, 2 area but at station two there were no flags. If there was a pass under yellow a price should be paid but a DQ? James is as good a racer as we have in CMC and if it happened to him I'm sure it's only a matter of time before I pull something like this. For one quick moment I even wondered if the yellow at start/finish meant we were under full course yellow like in other forms of racing.

DQ or not everyone knows who's the top dog in CMC2!
There has to be another way. It was just an accident!

JJ

[AllZWay]

I really appreciate all the kind words from everyone, but I was clearly in the wrong.

I do think the penalty doesn't fit the crime for a one time offense.

I thought the same thing when it happened to Glenn and Al last year and it really should be looked at for the future.

I have no problem with the DQ for the passing under yellow....I just think you should be able to drop that race.

So for one mistake, I lost Toyo money, the win, and this race points....and effectively all season points.

BTW... I am not mad at any official for my mistake, but I am extremely disappointed in the rule itself and myself for being stupid.

[mitchntx]

Another driver was DQed last year for passing under a double yellow and the rules specifically say that a DQ penalty is possible for passing under a local yellow and the race director's discretionary call.

But, I'm with you, Jerry.

Officiating this time around was about as unorganized as I've witnessed in my short tenure.

EVERYONE knows what a black flag means. And later on during the driver's meeting, it became clear that some got a black flag because of an incident and others got a pace car.

There were too many examples of mistakes, on both sides, to warrant an extreme penalty like that.

Reference material ...

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

19.3.4
ABSOLUTELY NO PASSING is permitted, until completely past the incident, or until past next manned flag station that is not displaying any Yellow Flag(s), whichever comes first.

25.5 Yellow Flag- Passing
A pass must be completed before the yellow flag station. This means that the overtaking driver must be completely in front of the overtaken car before either vehicle breaks the plane perpendicular to the track as defined by the yellow flag. Note- Drivers that attempt to “race to the yellow” to complete a pass may enter the yellow zone too fast and not under full control; and therefore be penalized for failing to comply with the conditions of the appropriate yellow flag rules. Harsh penalties WILL result for any passing under yellow flag situations. [Ref25.4.1)]

25.4.1 Passing General
The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed and must not impede the pass by blocking. A driver who does not watch his/her mirrors or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass may be black-flagged and/or penalized. The act of passing is initiated when the trailing car’s (Car A) front bumper
overlaps with the lead car’s (Car B) rear bumper. The act of passing is complete when Car A’s rear bumper is ahead of Car B’s front umper. “NO PASSING” means a pass cannot even be initiated. Any overlap in a NO PASSING area is considered illegal.

27.11 Issuing Penalties
The IRB may choose to issue any penalty for any infraction. However, it is highly recommended that they follow closely with what is published in the rulebook. Any deviation from what is published without due proof of mitigating circumstance may be grounds for appeal. The following is a list of suggested penalties for the listed infraction:

1. Contact bumper to bumper with no deviation and no damage: No penalty
2. Any sheet metal contact with no damage and no deviation: No penalty
3. Any contact causing deviation, with no damage, but loss of a position: Reposition
4. Any contact resulting in “damage” as defined by these guidelines: One (1) race suspension
5. Any contact resulting in a “punt” as defined by these guidelines: Disqualification
6. Any contact resulting in damage and punt: Disqualification and one (1) race suspension
7. Passing under a standing yellow or double yellow: Reposition to last place (minimum)
8. Passing under waving yellow and / or over-driving any yellow: Disqualification (minimum)
These are general guidelines for standard penalties. They may be additive or multiplicative depending on the situation and the person’s past record. The IRB may invoke more severe penalties for repeated violations. Any deviation from these guidelines should be justified in the report to the Race Director.

27.12 Driver’s Points System
The IRB shall elect a “Pointskeeper” for the sake of keeping track of on track violations and penalties. Because the faults and/or penalties may be appealed, no results shall be official until personally approved by the Race Director, and/or published in The Penalty Box section of Speednews. The Pointskeeper will keep a tally on the accumulation of driver’s points for each driver. The following are guidelines for assigning points.

1. Contact bumper to bumper with no deviation and no damage: No points
2. Any sheet metal contact with no damage and no deviation: One (1) point each
3. Any contact causing deviation, with no damage, but loss of a position: Three (3) points for the offender, one (1) point for the other driver.
4. Any contact resulting in “damage” as defined by these guidelines: Three (3) points for the offender, one (1) point for the other driver.
5. Any contact resulting in a “punt” as defined by these guidelines: Three (3) points for the offender, one (1) point for the other driver.
6. Any contact resulting in damage and punt: Three (3) points for the offender, one (1) point for the other driver.
7. Passing under a standing yellow or double yellow: Two (2) points
8. Passing under waving yellow and/or over-driving any yellow: Three (3) points

[Wirtz]

Why is a DQ not droppable in the season points?

[ShadowBolt]

I did not know about the other DQ's from last year. Sorry. I still think the punishment is too harsh.

JJ

[GlennCMC70]

Team Pony Killers got DQ'ed the first race of the year last year.
DQ's are not droppable because it wouldnt be much of a penalty if the only affect was that you used us one of your 4 drops for the year.

i too feel the pnishment was to harsh. i was not in the loop on this and was totally blind sided w/ it from James. i'll look into this and see if we can at least have a couple of stages of penalies leading up to a DQ. my bet is group 7 (who has a history of stuff like this) was long over due for some major punishment for this very issue, got hammered and James pretty much had to get the same punishment for consistency reasons.

[michaelmosty]

I heard about this at the end of the day but thought there was still ongoing discussion about the final punishment.
Who was involved in the review of this?

The punishment does seem very excessive. What is the difference in passing upder yellow situations when sometimes individuals get repositioned to last place and others get a DQ?

[Waco Racer]

Please remember that the Emergancy Vehicle Flag was also displayed at start and rule 19.3.16 was in effect. This was the same situation that Team Pony Killers faced at MSRH last season.

According to 22.2.1 Default Points Drop System
All NASA series competitors will be able to drop their lowest ten percent (10%) of all season points-scoring races, unless otherwise specified by the class rules or other NASA publications. All “zeros” in the season points will be “droppable,” including all disqualifications; with exception of disqualifications as a result of “non-compliance” or “cheating.”

A situation like this could be dropped if CMC is using this portion of the rules in addition to their own points system. NASA Texas informed Team Pony Killers that they would not be allowed to drop the DQ because of them being Series Directors and are supposed to be the example for the other racers in the Series. As you know, last year I was really trying to clamp down on passing while the EV flag was being displayed.

This is a good discussion and I am willing to work with this series and its directors if the consensus is that something positive can be produced without compromising safety.

This post from me is for informational purposes. I will back out now and allow this discussion to develop. I look forward to hearing from the Series Directors on this issue.

[Todd Covini]

Thanks for the post, Clifton and the reminder from last year's penalty being a "example setting one".

I agree with the posts above and we'll discuss as was mentioned to James yesterday afternoon.

-=- T

[michaelmosty]

Thanks Clifton, great information!
We are pullin for ya James.