How about these real world scenarios ...

[mitchntx]

Being as tape don't lie ...

http://www.vimeo.com/5924170

At 1:53 a racer checked up because of a visibly blocked track. Two cars pass him going into the smoke.

When CW station was passed there was no yellow as the on-track condition was unfolding. But most everyone was waving hands and checking up which is the reason for the first driver to check up.

Technically OK to pass? What is the expectation?



No tape, but ...

Later in the race, same corner and from my POV, I was following a car which locked up brakes going into T3 as you crest the little bump. The car slid wide in the turn. He never left the racing surface, but did move WAY off-line and in that general direction.

I had already committed to turn in and went past him.

CW station at T3 was displaying standing yellow and debris flags.

After track out, I waved him back around me.

Question is, did I technically have to do that based upon his leaving the racing line and based upon the manner in which did leave the line?

I understand that had he checked up and ran the turn wide on purpose, then definitely no. But this was a lock up and slid straight instead of turning to apex.

Not asking for blame, pointing of fingers or a critique of any one's driving style. Just want to know how that would be judged post race had it been brought up.

To me, the answers are the minutia of detail that we seem to be approaching.

[David Love AI27]

(deleted post) started with "in my opinion" usually followed by a lot of "I thinks" and "I believes"... trying to stop doing that...

[GlennCMC70]

appears to me JG had a run on SM coming out of 3 and had some part of his car next to SM. SM got on the brakes pretty hard and MM and JW almost got into the back of him. JG didnt brake as hard as SM and moved forward.
those were the only two cars that gained position in the vid provided.
did those guys violate a flag condition? no. there was no flag in 3 and if there was a flag in 2-1 we could not have seen it anyways. regardless - the change of position happened during an accident avoidance measure.

the right thing to do there would have been to reposition yourself behind the car you passed. we should never take advantage of a fellows drivers caution/concern over an issue such as this. no one knew what was in the smoke and each of us was afraid to enter. some more than others.
was there a rules violation? no. not w/ those cars mentioned above.

this seems to be putting JG and MM on the spot. lets not attack these two guys. i'm sure there eyes/mind was focused on what was happening in front of them and not so much about who they should be behind.
lets give them a chance to explain for themselves what they were thinking at the time.

[mitchntx]

I really don't think any explanation from those guys is necessary.

It doesn't appear they did anything technically wrong based upon a flag to flag, no passing scenario. And Jeff Wirtz and Jeff Burch could have passed as well because they had not yet made it to a CW station displaying a yellow flag.

Just like the shoe demo on Sunday morning, discussing these tiny, small nuances while on track and coming to a consensus as a group gets us all aligned and we know better what to expect from each other when put in this predicament again.

So the expectation is that as long as the CW station is not displaying a yellow flag when you pass it, passing is allowed regardless of track conditions.

Again, not pointing fingers or laying blame or throwing anyone under the bus or hidden agendas. Just learning and making myself, and others, aware of what to expect if similar circumstances arise.

[GlennCMC70]

And Jeff Wirtz and Jeff Burch could have passed as well because they had not yet made it to a CW station displaying a yellow flag.

they could have. but i guess i wasnt clear in stating, i dont think it was thier (JG/MM) intent to gain a position, but rather accidenct avoidance.
Jeff and Jeff were in the same mode, as was i, but it didnt result in a position change. it ealily could have. the guys in front of the camera where closer to the issue than those futher back, thus less time to respond notonly to the issue, but to one another.

[mitchntx]

hmmm ... I can see that.

And let me be 100% clear ... I'm not saying any one did any thing wrong.

[AI#97]

hmmm ... I can see that.

And let me be 100% clear ... I'm not saying any one did any thing wrong.

Technically, your second scenario is also a no passing situation unless the car is completely stopped...JWL explained this at Nats last year....so accidentally passing him and waving him back by was exactly what you were supposed to do since the other car was still progressing down the track...now the wave back by according to the CCR should only take place once you reach GREEN track again. The rule stands DO NOT pass under yellow even if you are being waved back by, until it is green track again. I learned that one the hard way in Saturday's Qual race when Shotz waved us back by when he passed under yellow. Still blows my mind how he gridded on the front row too...? That race was fucked up on so many levels it wasn't funny...

[mitchntx]

Good info ...

[David Love AI27]

ok I can't resist... I believe what Mitch is trying to assess is what do you do when all hell breaks out... Here is what I KNOW... If a corner worker reports that you made an illegal pass it is up to you to defend yourself. In the past, judgement went to the worker unless you gave back the position and it was supported by another driver or in some cases by another corner worker. In SCCA if the pass was not witnessed by another worker it usually wasn't called in. Now that everyone has in-car cameras you do have a defense. What you have to remember is you are at the mercy of the cornerworkers PERIOD. Always wave and smile... they see your eyes squint when you smile.

AND I was the first car behind FMR and I did brake very hard when I noticed smoke in the cockpit and saw him hunting for the track. I DID NOT throw my hand up untill AFTER I looked in the mirror... sorry guys my bad, I should have waved before or as I was braking.

[Alien]

Technically, your second scenario is also a no passing situation unless the car is completely stopped...JWL explained this at Nats last year....

Stopped or off the racing SURFACE (not line), correct?