More durable/affordable tire option?

[Rob Liebbe]

2 cents from the past and now outside....

There were several reasons that I stopped racing, some race-related and some not. However, the RR tire issue was a big factor for leaving and remains an issue that would have to be resolved before I return. The issues of cost, build quality (mostly the threat of tread seam separation), performance drop-off and Toyo contingency parity seem to reflect what a lot of others have already stated.

I believe that Nitto is still part of the Toyo family. The Nitto NT01 is a very good tire with a lower performance capacity but with better lifetime consistency, a lot like the old RA1. With that in mind, does anyone think that Toyo would be interested in having the Nitto NT01 as the CMC tire the Toyo RR as the AI tire? This would better match the cost factors of the two series and allow Toyo to put the Nitto name out there a bit more. The risk there is that Toyo will just crank the pricing up on the NT01 due to being a race specific tire.

UTGR treadwear numbers are not exactly reliable performance indicators. The treadwear number that is generated in controlled tests is the highest number that the tire manufacturer can put on the tire. The manufacturer can choose to advertise a 200 TW tire as a 140 TW tire if they choose to do so to market the tire as a high-performance model. They cannot say that a 140 TW tire is a 200TW tire.

Contingency programs that award heavily to the top finishers need to be evaluated, especially with a tire that is considerably faster as a sticker tire. Aaron McSpadden capitalized on this when he ran CMC and was able to have fresh tires at every session that he wanted. I will give kudos to Aaron for having a good set-up and reliable car as well as high driving skills. I don't think the top contingency prize should be able to fully fund an entire tire budget.

Currently, if I was to get my CMC car out of storage, I would buy a set of NT01's and run a variety of different events on different tracks with a variety of groups.

Oh, and man do I miss TWS!


Rob Liebbe

[RichardP]

The Nitto NT01 is a very good tire with a lower performance capacity but with better lifetime consistency, a lot like the old RA1.

Is it currently, though? I've run the NT01 before. It was fine but I didn't do a detailed comparison of performance from old to new. The bigger question is whether the NT01 you can buy now is the same that you ran before? The RA1 went through at least three iterations while we were running it (I'm guessing more) even though Toyo denied it. The current RR is different than the RR we started on. The common end of life for RR's when we started was a light cording of the outside edge all the way around the tire. It was guaranteed if you didn't flip the tire on the rim after the first event even though the tread seemed to be wearing evenly otherwise. I haven't seen an RR cord like that in a couple of years even when we don't flip them. What else have they changed???


Richard P.

[ShadowBolt]

2 cents from the past and now outside....

There were several reasons that I stopped racing, some race-related and some not. However, the RR tire issue was a big factor for leaving and remains an issue that would have to be resolved before I return. The issues of cost, build quality (mostly the threat of tread seam separation), performance drop-off and Toyo contingency parity seem to reflect what a lot of others have already stated.

Rob Liebbe

This is the reason I bring this tire issue up every year (Daniel beat me to it this year). I hate to lose great racers like Rob due to tire cost. I know others that stopped racing because of tire issues. Some have sold their cars. I always thought of CMC as the class that would let a working man road race. If you have to purchase a new set of tires for every event (and you do if you want to be as fast as possible for every qual and every race) we will lose racers and keep others from joining us in the first place. Look at The Drivers Edge. They sell out every event. If we can make racing in CMC cost near what it cost to run the Drivers Edge our numbers will go up. I think if we can pull off getting a tire that we can run three race weekends (two sets for a regular season) that cost $300.00 less then the RR we could build up to twenty car fields in a few years. I could be wrong but as you can read here tire cost does run people off from CMC road racing.


JJ

[mach1]

We should probably decide by Friday, lots of good points made, does anyone else have thoughts here? IMO the 245 is the perfect combo of OD size vs value vs load rating, 17x9.5 won't be an issue, if the tire doesn't extend past the wheel though it may result in wheel contact vs tire contact. 275 may be good for damage insurance :-/

[Supercharged111]

We should probably decide by Friday, lots of good points made, does anyone else have thoughts here? IMO the 245 is the perfect combo of OD size vs value vs load rating, 17x9.5 won't be an issue, if the tire doesn't extend past the wheel though it may result in wheel contact vs tire contact. 275 may be good for damage insurance :-/

I'm curious to see what tire temps would run on a 245 vs 275 in the middle of summer.

[64GunPilot]

This is the reason I bring this tire issue up every year (Daniel beat me to it this year). I hate to lose great racers like Rob due to tire cost. I know others that stopped racing because of tire issues. Some have sold their cars. I always thought of CMC as the class that would let a working man road race. If you have to purchase a new set of tires for every event (and you do if you want to be as fast as possible for every qual and every race) we will lose racers and keep others from joining us in the first place. Look at The Drivers Edge. They sell out every event. If we can make racing in CMC cost near what it cost to run the Drivers Edge our numbers will go up. I think if we can pull off getting a tire that we can run three race weekends (two sets for a regular season) that cost $300.00 less then the RR we could build up to twenty car fields in a few years. I could be wrong but as you can read here tire cost does run people off from CMC road racing.


JJ

I am just a prospect (sorta like Sons of Anarchy lol). I have loosely followed CMC for several years while I been overseas. I can tell you the tire costs certainly made it hard for me to go the CMC route. I thought hard about spec miata simply because the tires and other consumables probably cost half what it does in CMC. I knew I wanted to road race, and I knew I loved American Thunder V8s, but I'd probably be happy in spec miata too and the costs are less.

As I got more serious and closer to coming back stateside I was still on the fence for about a year trying to decide which way to go. The only reason I pulled the trigger on an built CMC car is because 1. I got a hella good deal on hopefully a great car AND 2. The car came with 5 complete sets of 16" RA1 tires for me to train on. At the current moment, I need some 17" wheel solutions, and I cannot afford a set of RRs even if I spread two sets over 4 events I can't afford that. But I pulled the trigger anyways because in a year from now I hope to be in a little better financial situation to afford to upgrade to 17's and run RRs. But...........

But damn, Im a newbie here, and hearing all this about how the RRs fall off so drastically before they are worn out, thats bullshit. That'll run me in the other direction in a heartbeat!! Years ago it was just the RA1 (which is just as expensive now)......but what happened? How did we end up here with RRs? Did the whole CMC community cast their votes for RRs? Supply problems? Or was NASA and Toyo suck starting this blow torch pushing some agenda?

The fact that a revolt is in the air gives me some peace that maybe by the time I have my competition license next year, as a class, we will have this resolved.

[RichardP]

I knew I loved American Thunder V8s, but I'd probably be happy in spec miata too and the costs are less.

It probably costs less to run a Miata but more to be in the top half of the field in a Miata. They run the same tires we do and replace them just as much or more than we do. It's way cheaper and easier to be a race winner in our class. And we're much cooler to hang out with... :-)

How did we end up here with RRs? Did the whole CMC community cast their votes for RRs? Supply problems? Or was NASA and Toyo suck starting this blow torch pushing some agenda?

Tires for our class are mandated by NASA in conjunction with Toyo and their sponsorship contract. We were on RA1's, then R888 (which went poorly), then back on RA1's and then RR's.

Toyo is a business trying to make money by selling tires. Selling more race tires helps the money part of their racing program. The advertising from the NASA program is supposed to help them sell more street tires. We don't have any information on how the numbers work out. It's completely possible that even with the current setup, the racing side of the house loses money and is considered part of Toyo's advertising budget. Or not???

On the other side, NASA is a business trying to make money. They get money from Toyo for the tire program. From the tire program, NASA gets to entice racers with the promise of big money payouts (in the form of tire coupons) for winning. The more racers that sign up to race, the more money they make. If everyone is happy with the tire situation, it's a big win for NASA. If people aren't happy with the tire situation, people don't sign up. The big question (that's almost impossible to answer even if we had access to the numbers, which we don't) is at what point do the losses from people going away because of tires exceed the net benefit from the money coming in from the tire contract?

The fact that a revolt is in the air gives me some peace that maybe by the time I have my competition license next year, as a class, we will have this resolved.

First, it is pretty unlikely this will be resolved before you get your license. The tire contract is big money (we believe) and is probably signed for multiple years. It will be really challenging to "officially" change the tire rules. Whether we as a local group decide to do something different is maybe another question? On the other hand, there is some hope. Management isn't completely blind to what is going on. Locally, they have instituted a street tire subclass to the TT groups. If that goes well, it will help our cause. TT isn't a spec Toyo class and isn't covered by the big Toyo contract so this was easier to experiment with there.


Also, a bit of perspective is in order. If the tire degradation issue realistically affects your competitiveness within, say, the next two years, you will be considered to be extraordinary. We are all hoping that you are extraordinary cause it's great to have more racers fighting for the pointy end. We will also do whatever help you to get to the pointy end. Even if you don't get there that quickly, we will make sure you have a good time trying. There is really good racing going on even if you aren't on the top of the podium. The amount to learn between where you are now and the pointy end is staggering. Get ready to drink from a fire hose. And have a blast doing it. Don't worry, it's a lot of fun but not addicting. You will be able to stop whenever you want. Probably...


Richard P.

[64GunPilot]

Also, a bit of perspective is in order. If the tire degradation issue realistically affects your competitiveness within, say, the next two years, you will be considered to be extraordinary. We are all hoping that you are extraordinary cause it's great to have more racers fighting for the pointy end. We will also do whatever help you to get to the pointy end. Even if you don't get there that quickly, we will make sure you have a good time trying. There is really good racing going on even if you aren't on the top of the podium. The amount to learn between where you are now and the pointy end is staggering. Get ready to drink from a fire hose. And have a blast doing it. Don't worry, it's a lot of fun but not addicting. You will be able to stop whenever you want. Probably...

I have no illusions of being a podium finisher for a couple years. Looking forward to the mentorship. And thanks for the historical and background info regarding the business end of the tire debacle.

[Sook]

I like the idea of running a 245 tire from a cost perspective. For this test though, I think it makes sense to stick with the 275 to minimize the number of variables at play and give these tires the best chance at success.

My vote is 275 for this test. I'm ready to order.

- Josh

[mach1]

Fair enough I’m good with 275s