CMC and header wrap on exhaust manifolds - not legal.

[Alien]

To make a poll accurate for a CMC rules question, then all CMC racers should be included in the poll. If they aren't, the poll doesn't accurately reflect all of the CMC racers.

Correct but it is a roughly representitive of the PERCENTAGE of for or against something. When the TV talking heads say 32% of the US watched the superbowl, do you think they polled everyone? When they say 58% of Americans like V8 cars, did they ask everyone? No, they only polled a million people, and roughly half said yes. Since they didn't then it's not an accurate statement? What the poll does is get the feelings of the racers within an order of magnitude.

*edit*damn I type like I drive, slow

[Adam Ginsberg]

[QUOTE=GlennCMC70;57833]Do poll's often ask every person who lives in the US? Or do they take a sample and allow it to reflect the "popular" opinion? I think the 2nd one. So in this case do you think the opinion of those who decide not to vote ALL fall in a single direction and the opinion of those who do vote fall the other direction? If you think that, you have some serious issues.

As for a DQ at a regional event and your opinion.... I would agree and such has happened many times. In this instance there has been fair notice given. Consider this the "logbook entry".
You commented eslewhere about how each region is different (posted today on the National site).

Each region is unique, and the communication method that works for one region may not be as well suited for another.[\quote]

This region wants the rules enforced and expects a DQ when they are violated. The races here in Texas participated in a poll (dear God! not another poll!) and that was the result - DQ's for CMC rules violations.

The FUN is for all involved, not just those who do not want to follow the rules. Some folks don't think it is very fun to show up w/ a legal car only to get beat by a non-legal car. The expectation is everyone will be legal. I do my best to not pick and choose which rules I will and will not enforce based on my own personal opinion on them. In this case, I think it is flat out stupid this rule did not change when I sugested it in the off season year before last. You commented above that this has minimal performance impact, but you voted against allowing the change in 2010 for the 2011 rules. That is really odd.

This is precisely why I don't spend as much time on the forums as I used to. Not interested in the regular, fucked up ring-around-the-rosie, since you've taken things out of context, put words in my mouth, and generally made yourself look better, and more "transparent" than you really are.

Yeah, I'm out.....

[GlennCMC70]

Ah, I see. Everyone here (from TX) seems to have little to no issue w/ my "offer" to issue a DQ. You (from the Cali Region) come here on a TX forum to tell me how big of an ass I'm being all the while making yourself look like an ass all on your own, get pissed and leave (I bet you stormed off stomping your feet too!). Somehow all this is my doing. Your out, and you should have never come in. Not sure how any of this TX stuff was your concern. Likely it would be if I wasn't following the rules, but I am, and you have issue w/ it. F me.....

If I acted like you, I wouldn't spend much time on the forums either.

[Sidney]

Really?!?! Issue a DQ for header wrap? Especially if they are ok on the dyno?? A note in a logbook (the first time) to simply remove it for the next event isn't suitable enough?? For an item that is questionable, at best for being a "performance enhancement"??

Holy shit, that's completely ridiculous, and severe overkill at a regional event.

Did you forget why we do this, Glenn? It's for good close racing, and fun.

Not DQ'ing at Regional events and you end up with Lexan Side Windows at Nationals! Last time I checked...CMC was a Nationally recognized class. When the Midwest boys tow out to Hallett, or VIR, or Watkins Glen, or Road Atlanta...we expect everyone to be following the same rules.

Sidney

[David Love AI27]

if i acted like you, i wouldn't spend much time on the forums either.

roflmfao

[RichardP]

Not DQ'ing at Regional events and you end up with Lexan Side Windows at Nationals!

Really??? There is absolutely no middle ground between completely ignoring the most basic of rules compliance and disqualification??? So if some competitor doesn't follow the ridiculous drama on all the message boards and thus doesn’t know about the header wrap clarification, they should be disqualified for showing up with a car with same stuff that they saw on other competitors cars at the last event?


Richard P.

[GlennCMC70]

Two things Richard (and I type this w/ all the respect in the world).....
This post is not a rule clarification regarding header wrap. It is a heads up sort of "I don't know who told you that you could, but you can't" informative type post/thread. I tried to install it in 2004 while building my car. I got a very clear answer then - NO! (From Adam and Todd). It has never been implied to be legal. Someone here did it (and didn't get caught) and told others that it was legal when another competitor(s) called them on it. Instead of reading the rules and coming to that conclusion on their own, they acted like sheep and followed suit.
That leads to the 2nd issue. Monkey see, monkey do is BS. The rules are there. Read them. If you don't get the same meaning from a rule (or lack of one), clarify it w/ an official. Don't say "Well Bob has it and he says it's OK, so we can do it now". Well Bob is not an Official. It is hard enough to keep all the Directors on the same page and interpret the rules the same. I don't need racers doing it for other racers. There is nothing wrong w/ racers questioning legality of parts on each other cars (face to face)and “…show me where it says I can do that”.
All Officials in CMC have been pretty clear about “If it is not in the rules, then you likely cannot do it.” Always ask first. Get it in writing. I still have emails I carry to the track every event giving me permission to run parts that are not OEM and not spelled out in the rules (not on the car anymore). I do this you prove I went thru the proper channels to get permission to do it.
This isn’t directed at you Richard, rather in response to things you said. Not a personal attack of any sort.

[RichardP]

Glenn, I get all that and I agree. I'm pretty sure I've made it clear that everyone should be compliant with even the dumbest of rules. The question is whether or not the appropriate action at the next regional event is to give people who don't know they are not in compliance a chance to correct the issue or to just hand out disqualifications...

Richard P.

[BryanL]

Glenn-I certainly don't have an issue with a DQ for illegal parts on a car and agree with your assessment of Adam. Don't know why he had to try and take a shot at you about every comment from issuing a DQ to the use of a poll. A poll is simply a sample of the public opinion to gather information. It doesn't have to include every single competitor to be accurate.

Good point Sydney and I agree with you.

Richard-I thought you wanted strict rules compliance especially after the lexan windows fiasco at Nats? Now I see Richards post above.

I'll run AI with my wrapped manifolds and submit a rules change request. And unless the rules are clarified to allow painting of the manifolds then anyone can submit against a car with painted manifolds since it doesn't say you can paint them in the rules.

[GlennCMC70]

Glenn, I get all that and I agree. I'm pretty sure I've made it clear that everyone should be compliant with even the dumbest of rules. The question is whether or not the appropriate action at the next regional event is to give people who don't know they are not in compliance a chance to correct the issue or to just hand out disqualifications...

Richard P.

Thanks Richard. If this had all transpired at the track, I would agree that a DQ would be a little harsh. Hell, if it was the week of the event, I likely would not issue a DQ. But w/ this sort of notice, I think it is a fair expectation. If anyone has problems becoming compliant, get w/ me off-line. We can likely work something out.
Plus I sort of know who has and hasn't seen it and I know the names of those on the short list that this affects. The risk is minimal.