Scientific evaluation of Camaro/Mustang performance parity

[ShadowBolt]

The whole Nats deal is BS. This is supposed to be grassroots racing and we are supposed to be grassroots racers. If you insist on having a National race have it change locations every year. Once in each region changing every year. East Coast, West Coast, Midwest, Miller, Texas, and Barber in the Southeast. How many Cal. racers are going to drive to Mid Ohio? I assumed the Cal. guys would make the race at Miller but it's still over 700 miles for them. Miller and Mid Ohio are over 1250 miles for Team Jordan. The money is not as big a deal as the time off for me (but the money with fuel at $4.00 is a big deal). As a married racer my wife does not want her vacation time away from our business spent at a race track! Lets face it we are reagional racers and CMC has no real National champion with eight cars showing up at Nationals. I still contend and would be willing to bet that the best CMC racer in the country has never even been to Nationals.


JJ

[Adam Ginsberg]

The whole Nats deal is BS. This is supposed to be grassroots racing and we are supposed to be grassroots racers. If you insist on having a National race have it change locations every year. Once in each region changing every year. East Coast, West Coast, Midwest, Miller, Texas, and Barber in the Southeast.

Jerry - to put it simply, you completely underestimate what it takes to pull off a successful, National event with over 400 drivers. Moving it around each year would not only be a logistical nightmare, but also make it difficult for NASA to negotiate with various tracks when they want to hold it around the same time each year.

Something you also don't get - people were asking, no, demanding a NASA National event, since I got involved in 2003.

While you may not agree with the Nats, there are many who do. You are clearly voting with your wallet, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Don't call the Nats BS.....it's not. That's a very myopic point of view.

How many Cal. racers are going to drive to Mid Ohio? I assumed the Cal. guys would make the race at Miller but it's still over 700 miles for them. Miller and Mid Ohio are over 1250 miles for Team Jordan. The money is not as big a deal as the time off for me (but the money with fuel at $4.00 is a big deal). As a married racer my wife does not want her vacation time away from our business spent at a race track! Lets face it we are reagional racers and CMC has no real National champion with eight cars showing up at Nationals.

IMO, it's no different that winning a race, or a regional championship - at a minimum, you must start to be able to finish. I don't believe for one minute that only those with deep pockets can make it to the Nats. It takes will, determination, drive, sacrifice, and yes, $$$.

I've attended 3 National events as a competitor (and 3 times as an official), and each time, it took sacrifice to get there. Sacrifice in not attending a regional event (or two, or three!) to save $$, sacrifice in saving up enough vacation time to make the haul, sacrifice in spending time with the family, etc. In each case (2006, 2007, and 2010), I planned a full year in advance, and was never 100% sure I'd make the event due to any number of circumstances. And yes, money was one of those circumstances.

I still contend and would be willing to bet that the best CMC racer in the country has never even been to Nationals.

What does that have to do with anything? That's like saying the best F1 driver hasn't competed yet because they haven't been offered a ride with Ferrari, or RBR.

[mitchntx]

I no longer have any dog in this fight, but be forewarned ...

It appears you guys are being "baited" into an arguement.
I realized it on a different site and backed out.

I don't know what the agenda is now, but its not so different than what was witnessed several years ago.

Don't play the game ...

Edited for clarity

[Adam Ginsberg]

I no longer have any dog in this fight, but be forewarned ...

It appears you guys are being "baited" into an arguement.
I realized it on a different site and backed out.

I don't know what the agenda is now, but its not so different than what was witnessed several years ago.

Don't play the game ...

Edited for clarity

Wow - quite the conspiracy theorist.

[ShadowBolt]

Jerry - to put it simply, you completely underestimate what it takes to pull off a successful, National event with over 400 drivers. Moving it around each year would not only be a logistical nightmare, but also make it difficult for NASA to negotiate with various tracks when they want to hold it around the same time each year.

Something you also don't get - people were asking, no, demanding a NASA National event, since I got involved in 2003.

While you may not agree with the Nats, there are many who do. You are clearly voting with your wallet, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Don't call the Nats BS.....it's not. That's a very myopic point of view.



IMO, it's no different that winning a race, or a regional championship - at a minimum, you must start to be able to finish. I don't believe for one minute that only those with deep pockets can make it to the Nats. It takes will, determination, drive, sacrifice, and yes, $$$.

I've attended 3 National events as a competitor (and 3 times as an official), and each time, it took sacrifice to get there. Sacrifice in not attending a regional event (or two, or three!) to save $$, sacrifice in saving up enough vacation time to make the haul, sacrifice in spending time with the family, etc. In each case (2006, 2007, and 2010), I planned a full year in advance, and was never 100% sure I'd make the event due to any number of circumstances. And yes, money was one of those circumstances.



What does that have to do with anything? That's like saying the best F1 driver hasn't competed yet because they haven't been offered a ride with Ferrari, or RBR.

The NASA Nats are BS to me and I stand by it. How much planning it takes makes no difference. How hard the people at NASA work to put it on makes no difference to those of us that don't go. If it's worth it to have it at all its worth it to move it around so every racer can have a better chance to run them. You say it's worth all the planning, time off from work and money, but most don't agree.....at least not in CMC or you would have 50-70 car fields. I'm sure some people wanted NASA to have a Nats and love running them but for most of us it's BS. Even if you don't like hearing it Adam. If I was wrong you would have four times the entries!

Last my statement about the best driver not ever going to Nats......all I was saying is in most sports the champion is the best or at least the one of the very best. Because of the distance to NASA Nats a lot of guys will never make the trip so as far as CMC is concerned the best drivers may never make it to a National event. The guys that do go can't do anything about this and I don't mean to take anything away from them. All they can do is race all that show up.

I'm not going to fight with Adam on this Mitch but this is JMHO and I still get to have one in this country......at least for now.


JJ

[mitchntx]

I'm not going to fight with Adam on this Mitch but this is JMHO and I still get to have one in this country......at least for now.


JJ

He's definitely trolling for something.


I agree with your points.

For a series that is (or was) a budget oriented series, CMC Nats is a social event, not a king of the mountain contest.
Many of the most talented CMC participants have limited time, limited funds and/or limited budgets.

I was there twice and all that planning yielded a botched start one year and a cluster-f*^k finish the other.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Holy shit, you have serious issues, Mitch. I'm not attempting to "bait" or troll anyone into anything. Good lord, calm the hell down.

Jerry, you are 100% correct - the champion is the best, or at least one of the very best. And no one said you couldn't have your opinion, so don't put words in my mouth.

In ALL sports, the champion is the one who shows up, and bests everyone else in attendance that day/race. At a regional level, a single event weekend, down to one single race.....the best is determined by who shows up, takes the green flag, and crossed the checker first. Those that don't attend can't ever be a race winner, or champion - that is my point.

Saying a champion out of 8 drivers isn't really a champion because "the best CMC driver hasn't attended the Nationals" is disingenuous, and takes everything away from those that worked their asses off to be there.

[BlueFirePony]

In ALL sports, the champion is the one who shows up, and bests everyone else in attendance that day/race. .

Playing a bit loose there trying to set up your argument. "ALL sports"?? "That day/race"??? Uhmmm, no!?
Most autosports (F1, Grand Am, ....) have a year long points system and even NASCAR has a 10 race "tourney" over many months. Hockey, basketball and baseball have tournaments with multi-game elimination series. In professional sports the series approach is certainly motivated by $ but even amateur versions have similar series approaches where feasable because it is the preferred approach from a sports design perspective.

To Jerry's point....so "people" demanded a National event? I bet a bunch more would demand free beer and backrubs if that's all it takes.
Over 400 drivers attend Nationals...how many don't?

Again, I sure hope the regional business folks are ahead of this (I am sure Dave and Revkah are...just don't know the others). Take a poll of the people who do NOT go to Nationals and I am sure they are less concerned about who gets the paper crown of "National Champion" than they are with regional success (both business and competition).
Formalizing and celebrating events like Hallet as the "Summer Shootout" is the way to go IMO. Not sure Hallet is the only/best place to do it but if it is it then it needs to be super-hyped - I really think this is where the energy needs to be focused. Regional growth is the key to NASA continuing to be successful. List three things about NASA that you would tell someone who was interested in putting a car on track (DE, TT or race)...would Nationals even be something you'd bring up in the initial conversation? If so you are probably wasting an opportunity...It's not in my elevator pitch that's for sure.

[roadracerwhite]

I have asked about the Midwest region doing a crossover at Hallet, unfortunately during the same time the Midwest region goes to Gingerman and the Great Lakes region goes to Grattan. For us to do a crossover with Texas and Rocky Mountain at Hallet it would be best for us if it was in late October. Of course sometimes we go to Hallet anyway, this year didn't work out for a bunch of people.

Bryan

[GlennCMC70]

I have asked about the Midwest region doing a crossover at Hallet, unfortunately during the same time the Midwest region goes to Gingerman and the Great Lakes region goes to Grattan. For us to do a crossover with Texas and Rocky Mountain at Hallet it would be best for us if it was in late October. Of course sometimes we go to Hallet anyway, this year didn't work out for a bunch of people.

Bryan

I think it would make more sence to crossover w/ the central region for you and us. At the same event would be even better.

Nationals does have a "play-off" format - sort of. Sure, the Champ is crowned based off the results of a single race, but there are 2 races prior that set the stage. You can run all the Regional races you want, but none of them give you the National Title.