Crime and Punishment - The Double Yellow

[Al Fernandez]

Exactly, a single yellow and double yellow have completely different restart rules.
Had this been a single yellow situation at T13 and a checker at S/F, it would have been game on racing.
With a double yellow, the restart is at the green flag or at the next station not displaying a yellow. Since S/F had a checker flag the race is over since the racing wouldn't have been able to resume until After the station. Any racing prior to S/F was prohibited.

Somewhat different in that they both have an exception. The baseline for both single and double yellow is the same: no passing until past the next station not displaying a yellow. For single yellow situations, the exception is that you may resume racing when past the incident. For double yellows, the exception is you can resume racing before start/finish if you see a green at start/finish. That is an actual green flag, not a "no yellow therefore its green" green. See 19.3 and 20.12.1

[dtanker65]

Somewhat different in that they both have an exception. The baseline for both single and double yellow is the same: no passing until past the next station not displaying a yellow. For single yellow situations, the exception is that you may resume racing when past the incident. For double yellows, the exception is you can resume racing before start/finish if you see a green at start/finish. That is an actual green flag, not a "no yellow therefore its green" green. See 19.3 and 20.12.1

Al,
What is the difference between green and checkers at the start/finish? Green is race on of course, but I thought checkers is race to the finish line unless accompanied by another flag. In R4 the T15 corner station showed no flags and the pace car had pulled off. The field was poised for a restart. I was expecting a green or green/white. If the race was under yellow until passing the start/finish line, wouldn't the correct flags be checker/yellow, or checker/green if the race was back on up to start/finish?

Dennis Tanker

[AI#97]

Al,
What is the difference between green and checkers at the start/finish? Green is race on of course, but I thought checkers is race to the finish line unless accompanied by another flag. In R4 the T15 corner station showed no flags and the pace car had pulled off. The field was poised for a restart. I was expecting a green or green/white. If the race was under yellow until passing the start/finish line, wouldn't the correct flags be checker/yellow, or checker/green if the race was back on up to start/finish?

Dennis Tanker

This exact Scenario is what Pissed Will off. The Yellow at T15 should not have been dropped and there should have been a yellow/checker at S/F AND the pace car should have led me to the checker.

I think Tyler's DQ should be reversed.

[GlennCMC70]

We all have to follow the displayed flags, even if they are displayed in error. Even if they are displayed in a manner not agreed upon by the event leadership. In this case they were displayed in a senario that is outlined in the CCR. There is no reversing that.

I am sure everyone wanted a single lap under green to finish this race. That could have been the intent. The reality is we got something different. It was a outlined senario in the CCR. If anything needs to be addressed, its with NASA.

[dtanker65]

We all have to follow the displayed flags, even if they are displayed in error. Even if they are displayed in a manner not agreed upon by the event leadership. In this case they were displayed in a senario that is outlined in the CCR. There is no reversing that.

I am sure everyone wanted a single lap under green to finish this race. That could have been the intent. The reality is we got something different. It was a outlined senario in the CCR. If anything needs to be addressed, its with NASA.

Glenn,

I am not wanting to beat a dead horse, but can you refer me to the paragraphs in the CCR that cover R4?

20.12.1 Each competitor may
resume passing at any time in the absence of a Pace Car being on course providing that they are completely
past a manned flag station not displaying any yellow flag, or when the green flag has been displayed at the
restart / starting stand / location.

19.3.3 [I] Checkered flag Functions to inform the drivers that session is over. This flag is not global because, the drivers that have
not passed by this flag are driving under “Green Flag” conditions.

19.1 Course Officials (Flaggers) are stationed around the course in various locations to provide communication in
order to serve two main functions. First, they communicate information to the drivers on course.

Failure to instantly evaluate any given signal and / or react to it properly and with good
judgment may result in severely undesirable consequences.

21.1 The Race Director reserves the right to make changes in rules and/or penalties to ensure fairness of all aspects
of competition. He/she will make every effort to correct problem situations to the fairness of the majority before
invoking penalties, in full or in part.

To quote a friend of mine's response to air traffic control when told to standby, "unable to stand by buddy, my chair is moving at 500 miles per hour". I guess all I am saying is that the drivers and flaggers are high speed decision makers and it is the duty of the race officials to "Monday morning quarterback" the event after the race is run. You guys are chosen for your experience and judgement.

Dennis Tanker

[mach1]

Glenn,

I am not wanting to beat a dead horse, but can you refer me to the paragraphs in the CCR that cover R4?

20.12.1 Each competitor may
resume passing at any time in the absence of a Pace Car being on course providing that they are completely
past a manned flag station not displaying any yellow flag, or when the green flag has been displayed at the
restart / starting stand / location.

19.3.3 [I] Checkered flag Functions to inform the drivers that session is over. This flag is not global because, the drivers that have
not passed by this flag are driving under “Green Flag” conditions.

19.1 Course Officials (Flaggers) are stationed around the course in various locations to provide communication in
order to serve two main functions. First, they communicate information to the drivers on course.

Failure to instantly evaluate any given signal and / or react to it properly and with good
judgment may result in severely undesirable consequences.

21.1 The Race Director reserves the right to make changes in rules and/or penalties to ensure fairness of all aspects
of competition. He/she will make every effort to correct problem situations to the fairness of the majority before
invoking penalties, in full or in part.

To quote a friend of mine's response to air traffic control when told to standby, "unable to stand by buddy, my chair is moving at 500 miles per hour". I guess all I am saying is that the drivers and flaggers are high speed decision makers and it is the duty of the race officials to "Monday morning quarterback" the event after the race is run. You guys are chosen for your experience and judgement.

Dennis Tanker

Good post Dennis, sounds like I have good reason to contest. Who do I need to talk to, Will F.?

[GlennCMC70]

This is the only rule that applies:

19.3.6 Double Yellow Flags
Categories: Command; Global.
Description: Two (2) solid motionless yellow flags, displayed at every manned flag station around the course.
Uses: NO PASSING is permitted. This is used to indicate “a full course yellow.” This means that there might
be a problem somewhere on the track. Drivers are NOT required to significantly slow their vehicles; however
they should be prepared to encounter a “local Yellow Flag” situation and/or a Pace Car (or a very slow moving
pack behind the Pace Car). The display of Double Yellow Flags does not guarantee the appearance of a Pace
Car. It is a command that NO PASSING IS ALLOWED until the Pace Car has pulled off the course (if
applicable) and the driver has passed the next manned flag station that is not displaying any Yellow Flag(s).
Reference Pace Car [Ref: (19.4.1)], [Ref: (20.11)], and [Ref : (20.12.1)

The course was double yellow to include the last flag station prior to the S/F line.
No passing is allowed until the S/F line. The flag @ the S/F line ended the race (the checkered). Because you can't pass before that point, the race ended w/ a finishing order equal to the previously recorded lap. Had it been a green and checkered, Tyler would be right. It wasn't and he wasn't.

We all know that Tyler's actions are different from the others. Take note of how many got it right vs how many got it wrong. I've always said if we error, it should be on the side of safety. Even if all those CMC cars were in error, is snookering a group of guys who may be error'ing on the side of safety the wise decision? Is the payoff worth the risk?

From this point forward, call me if you don't understand. I don't know how else to explain it. Seems pretty clear to me, but if you think I'm missing your point, again - a phone call is likely in order.
Tyler was welcome to appeal. I'm sure that window has long since closed. He can still try. That will have to go through Chris and it will go up from there.

[Al Fernandez]

What he said
It's not what we were all expecting but it is how the ccr is written.

[Fbody383]

It's not what we were all expecting but it is how the ccr is written.

The positive takeaway is that nobody was hurt, no cars suffered any inadvertent, incremental damage, and everybody involved now knows those rules better than ever.

[michaelmosty]

The positive takeaway is that nobody was hurt, no cars suffered any inadvertent, incremental damage, and everybody involved now knows those rules better than ever.

Completely agree!!
I realized I probably need to freshen up on the rules a little. I was under the impression that during a full course yellow, the restart 100% would come at the start/finish line. Once I re-read the specific section I realized the restart could be at any of the flag stations. That was definitely news to me.