Mitch...you definitely should NOT sell your car. You can always take a break unitl the itch strikes again.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
I keep saying I am going to take break for a while, but seem to get sucked back in every year.
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Mitch...you definitely should NOT sell your car. You can always take a break unitl the itch strikes again.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
I keep saying I am going to take break for a while, but seem to get sucked back in every year.
Michael, why not spherical bushing on both sides of that upper arm then? Does nobody make the parts or are you running urethane on one side on purpose? What are you running on the lower arms?
You can not buy just a spherical bushing for the body side of the arm. The only way to get a spherical bushing in the body side is to get an aftermarket UCA and I think all of them are adjustable. (Not 100% sure though) Like the link below:Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/...-Solid-Bushing
On the lower I am running the MM "Heavy duty" arms. They have spherical on the diff end and poly on the body end. MM does make an "Extreme Duty" arm that does have spherical on both ends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelmosty
I seem to remember Boudy selling a spherical bearing setup for the body side of the upper arms at one point? It would be conceptually the same as the lower front control arm bushing he sold. I'm not sure if either is available anymore???
Richard P.
Everyone wanted more hp, bigger brakes and more traction (CMC2).. ALL these things add stress to a stock chassis.
I believe someone mentioned AI lite... well thats where its going...
there was NOTHING wrong with CMC1... BUT NOOOOOO...
Instead of practice and improving driving skills, we work on making the car faster instead of making the driver faster...
I would love to switch cars sometime and compare lap times... Owner drives contingency races and switch for the other two..
Just sayin....
I was told of a East Coast region that is running a CMC Vintage type class. I have no details, no more facts, and names to point you to. Perhaps a revolution has started?Quote:
Originally Posted by David Love AI27
Instead of revolting (anymore).. I have decided to spend my efforts on my driving... My goal is to put a true CMC1 car on the podium... 2013 may be my last year to compete in CMC then I'm going back to AI in the 27 car, so its now or neverQuote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
If a rule change would be made to allow aftermarket upper arms, you could put together a spherical bearing upper arm for about $75 from the Coleman Catalog...
If such a rule were written, is your intent to replace only the right side upper control arm with a custom arm with spherical bearings, or would you come up with something that connected a fabbed single upper arm down the centerline to some type of bracketry that tied the two body and the two axle attachment points together for potential added strength?Quote:
Originally Posted by marshall_mosty
It would take an act of God to let us run the part Marshall decribes. No way anything like this would fly. As I have said before I changed to a Poly bushing the one side (all stock) held up fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by MHISSTC
JJ
$2500 brakes are okay, but a $75 control arm... well, that's outside the intent of CMC... I know, the Mustang boys can't replace their upper control arms because the rules were written by a bunch of GM guys who didn't think about that because they had a superior platform with a torque arm already and they don't have upper arms...
:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by marshall_mosty
You really don't know who wrote the CMC rules do you?
I do, and they all drove Fords. Don Trask is the only exception I know of.
---
LMFAO!
jb
"Drove".....they have all since switched to GM.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
I really didn't know... My statement was a poke that it could be viewed as biased that the Mustang's are the only platform with upper rear control arms, but they were excluded from the list of allowed modifications (no good reason why)... I speculated (ASSumed) that the rules were written by 4th gen guys... But it was just a poke.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
Why do we assume the Mustang would be faster than the Camaro with a torque arm added? Is it because the GM unit is a POS?
JJ
Faster than what? Faster than a 4th gen? or faster than it is? My answer to both is yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowBolt
Jerry/Michael
Tell you what ... you want to find out if all this is banter is rhetoric or truth, I have a couple stock, factory torque arms just like came on a Camaro hanging in my storage shed.
You are wlecome to them to put this to rest once and for all. At this point, its all just guess work and speculation.
Being as this is such a contraversial and sensitive subject, I'm sure the powers that be would allow you two guys to adapt a factory torque arm and run a series of tests just to see.
But again, the whole point of this thread is to find a solution to damaging a suspension mount on the floor pan. So taking a 3' lever and replacing it with a 5' lever probably isn't the answer you are looking for.
But, you are welcome to them in the name of getting to the truth.
I really like your idea Mitch. Never looked at the GM unit so I don't know how much of a job it would be. One thing though......it would not be replacing a 3' lever with a 5' but replacing a 1' lever (the stock upper is barely a foot long.Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
JJ
But you don't think the Camaro is faster with the torque arm than the Mustang is without one?Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
We need the Stig.
JJ
We have seen class dominance w/ Fox's, SN-95's, 3rd gens, 4th gens. It comes and goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowBolt
So no, I don't think there is a difference here worth making an adjustment for. But don't leave it up to me, submit a rules change resquest and see what happens. My opinion is only one of many.
The only time a Fox has dominated the class was back when it was Varner, Covini, and Ginsberg.....and they all drove a Fox!!Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
Not sure what your classification of dominance is. ;^)
I agree that was streatching.Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelmosty
So a Camaro with a torque arm and coil-overs does not have an advantage over a Mustang (without these items) but if you add these things to a Mustang it will be a way better car than a Camaro is. I guess I understand now.
JJ
I think a Camaro with a torque arm WITHOUT coilovers has an advantage-look at the dominance that has been done with the 3rd Gen chassis.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowBolt
Are you looking for a way to fix the chassis problems of the PM3L or do you want to talk platform parity? Do you want to allow the Fox a torque arm only and not the SN95 or do you think the SN95 is at a disadvantage too? What would it prove if you put a torque arm on a mustang and it ran 1 second quicker? Then it would get weight to bring it back in line don't you think?
I'm allowed an opinion. Sorry if that offends you.
SN-95's are Fox's too, or so says the Ford camp.
The cars are even w/ the way the cars sit now - weight, area under the curve, blah, blah, blah. My opinion.
You have yours.
If your right, the Director vote on the issue you submit for change will result in a change.
Everyone needs to take a few minutes one day and write down how much open track/racing seat time they have and compare that to how much the folks that beat them have. Odds are that the top finishers will show to have much more seat time than the "Lesser Speedy" guys. In this hobby, seat time is king. There is no rewards weight for ability.
Good luck guys - this one has jumped the shark.
I don't care what is "allowed" any more... beef up supports, add non factory TAs... the rules changes basically elimated the TPI motor... so I don't care what happens now...
AND prep time... Fox bodies dominated with Todd and Adam because of experience and then there was ShuVarner (he was just a natural)... Then came 3rd Gens with the Jeff's... Seat time AND prep time... The Jeffs had the best prepared cars in those years... Michael had Lemons races to add to his experience, James drove dirt cars and Dan has been getting time with The Driver's Edge... I spotted Jeremiah running Karts at TWS and he cross trains by running and biking AND his car prep is better than most...Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
FYI.. after the 3 hour enduro I have started working out.. I'm down to 160lbs and working on cardio... as soon as the paychecks start getting deposited, work starts on the 3 car... and I'll be at as many TDE events as I can fit in... Glenn is right... "seat time"... but physical prep and car prep are equally important...
Not sure why you say that. There is a parts list for the upgrade. No different that the Fox/SN-95 upgrades. It is a far better option than just quitting. If I had a 3rd gen, I would run a carb 350 or an LT1.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Love AI27
Bob Denton's carb 305 has always been a beast.
BTW, David congrats on the new fitness plan!!! Keep up the good work!!
BL,Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanL
No doubt Mustang drivers will need a fix for this as time goes on. The $200.00 I spent for two upper arms is crazy. The box came from Maximum Motorsports but the parts said Ford Racing on them. I assume even this source will dry up at dome point since Ford stopped producing them. I caused this issue on my car and I will figure it out. At some point we will have to find another way.
As far as platform parity is concerned, yes I want to know how close the cars really are. We do NOT know at this point. Maybe the Mustang is the best and all Mustang drivers suck and don't spend any time with car prep. For sure a great driver can win in any of the three or four chassis but that does not mean they are equal! I bet I can out bowl all of you with a $50.00 ball while letting you use a $200.00 high performance ball. The high dollar ball is certainly better but my experence will let me win with less. Same with a car. We thought we were going to get some info in this area had Glenn raced Boudy's car this year but this did not work out. Glenn, you are taking this all wrong. I'm not pissed off or anything. I'm not offended. Why would I be? I'm fixing my car and will be at ECR in Oct. I can't help but wonder (and I'm not alone) if the Mustang is giving something up to the cars with a torque arm. Like I said maybe I'm already driving the best platform........but I don't know. Are you going to tell me that if the Mustang had a torque arm and coil-overs and the Camaro did not that you would not wonder if you were giving up something? Be honest. I certainly can go purchase a Camaro and find out for myself but it would cost way more than its worth to me.
I assumed that if we added the torque arm and the coil overs and got track width as close as possible that then the cars would be as close to equal as possible. Then Gary said the aftermarket torque arms were way better than a stock GM arm. So maybe this is not possible.
JJ
I'm waiting for a big print job to finish so ...
Jerry,
Take the blinders off and look at the situation from a different persoective.
Remove the camaro from the equation altogether.
Are you running the same lap times as all other Mustangs?
Data from My Laps:
January 2012 at MSR-H
Mosty best time - 1:46.5
Gunter best time - 1:50.1
Jordan best time - 1:49.5
Wade best time - 1:55.1
March 2012 at MSR-C
Mosty best time - 1:46:5
Jordan best time - 1:49.5
Gunter best time - 1:50.1
Wade best time - 1:55.1
April 2012 at TWS
Wade best time - 2:01.9
Jordan best time - 2:01.2
June 2012 at Hallett
Mosty best time - 1:28.4
Rueth best time - 1:31.0
Wade best time - 1:33.0
Race 1 only, best laptimes are shown and the order of the drivers is the finishing order and by class and platform from three or four of the drivers I know
So and as many variables have been removed as possible for this slice of the pie.
Do you see a pattern?
There has to be parity amongst the same platform, right?
So why is there such a difference in laptimes?
Has to be the experience level of the driver.
You know as well as any one, DEs and AX in no way prepares you for the racing experience.
It was eye opening for me and you have expressed the same sentiment.
Its all about seat time.
Mosty has more seat time than any one else simply because of his relationship at MSR-C and the 7 years of experience he has under his belt.
He didn't get fast over night.
And you, Jerry, split your seat time with Jay.
I think that's fantastic and would have lover that opportunity with my dad.
But you do get 1/2 the experience per weekend than any one else.
Wade, you have come so far, dude. The last time you and I raced I could keep up, but only a slight bobble on your part allowed me to get around.
Don't be discouraged.
So to answer your question, Jerry
If going simply by laptimes, there isn't even parity amongst the Mustangs when assuming all drivers are the same.Quote:
Maybe the Mustang is the best and all Mustang drivers suck
I know it crawls all over you to pay $200 for a part that will fail ... it will fail.
But the Mustang doesn't have the market cornered there.
Ask any 4th gen guy about the front hubs.
Thanks for the info Mitch but you are totally missing my point. I know where I am speed wise in the Texas CMC Mustang world (and the whole Texas CMC world). This is not about the 55 should be in the front. I know who in a Mustang is better than I am but I don't know about the Camaros. Obviously several are faster than I am but is the Mustang platform holding me back some.......any? Is it holding Michael and Wade back? If Michael drove your car for a season would he be winning every race or would it be about the same? Al was going to trade cars with Boudy (did not work out but it could have been an eye opener).Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
This is not aboout the 55 or who can beat me or who I can outrun. I know my limitations and what it would take to get to the front and I am not willing to spend the time it takes to get there. This is a question of parity. I guess I'm stupid but I don't fully understand why the Mustang would be a better car than the Camaro if it was running the same parts as the Camaro runs? This has been the question all along. This is not end of the world stuff just stuff I wonder about sometimes.
JJ
Even in this pile of $hit Mustang I'm going to kick the 24's ass in Oct. See, I set my goals low.
JJ
Jerry, I really do think I understand ... you want to know what the change would be with a torque arm in a Mustang. Slower? Faster? the same?Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowBolt
You are right ... we don't know. But a maxim MS TA kit is hardly a like for like comparison to a factory GM unit. Therefore, it's an unaswereable question.
And the original point was about what can be done to stop the self destruction of the race car.
In the GM world, the similar self-destruction is along the trans mount. Its ripping all the spot welds out.
Self-destruction is part of the cost of going racing, from where I sit. You guys suffer from it and so do I.
Only solution is to go back and repair it.
And then the tangent about parity found its way into this convo. And it all centers on lap times.
The question hidden in all of this is parity discussion is with whom?
Parity with your car and Proctor's?
Mine and Michael's?
Wade's and Allford's?
The data above shows a WIDE variance in the same platform. I could post similar numbers on the Camaro side.
Rules relaxation in the name of parity HAS to remove the driver from the equation. Why? That's the biggest variable.
So that leads us full circle again to a question that just isn't answerable.
Is it fair to me as a mid-pack slacker for a potential advantage in lap times to Michael?
Is it fair to give you an advantage in order to keep up with Proctor?
What would that do to Michael's lap times?
The problem is, no one knows if there is an advantage or not.
You would be just as pissed off if the TA kit was allowed today, an advantage seen and the kit deemed illegal.
Remember how pissed folks were who had a stack of 888s?
Bottom line ... If a racer wants to 1) race, 2) be competitive and 3) not tear anything up.
Pick two and be call it good.
"So that leads us full circle again to a question that just isn't answerable."Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
I love ya Mitch but I do not agree with this part. It think it's possible to find out. I understand (now) about the differences in t/a's on the two platforms. I think we would know by now if Glenn had driven Boudy's car or if Al had traded for it. I don't blame Glenn for not doing it since he had nothing to gain and everything to lose. If at the end of the year he was not running up front or at least close to his old lap times..........or if he was as fast or faster than in previous years we would have learned a bunch. My real guess is the Mustang would be no faster adding a torque arm and I would still be a midpack slacker! Sorry I kept this one going so long. At least there was something to read on here for a few days.
I finished with this thread now since we will not figure it out here. IMHO the S197 is going to screw up CMC way past this issue. I thought we kept it civil. I'm going to miss you at the track Mitch!
When can we go racing?
JJ
Agreed Jerry!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowBolt
There was never a single time I was pissed, offended, or upset with the discussion. I think it is great to be able to hear everyone's opinions and understand the reasoning behind the individual views. It just means better education and understanding for all.
On a side note, the Jerry / Leinart smack talk is freakin great!!! :^)
Mitch - Golf clap....... Nice POV.
Parity...... Something we all want. How close is it between platforms? It is closer between platforms of top drivers in the series than it is between top drivers in the series of a single platform. Of the number of 4th gens, how many are top performers percentage wise? Same for 3rd gens? Fox's? SN-95's?
S-197's...... Man I wish this car would just go away.
Consider it done. Kyri and I will run DE and maybe TT when we return in October.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
Not sure why you didn't take this w/ regards to CMC, but do what you must. Were you considering moving down from AI?Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueFirePony
you guys are funny.....you should try owning BOTH a Camaro and a Mustang. You start to have these type of conversations with yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70