Why can't a Mustang run a torque arm?

[mitchntx]

I'm waiting for a big print job to finish so ...

Jerry,

Take the blinders off and look at the situation from a different persoective.
Remove the camaro from the equation altogether.
Are you running the same lap times as all other Mustangs?

Data from My Laps:

January 2012 at MSR-H

Mosty best time - 1:46.5
Gunter best time - 1:50.1
Jordan best time - 1:49.5
Wade best time - 1:55.1


March 2012 at MSR-C

Mosty best time - 1:46:5
Jordan best time - 1:49.5
Gunter best time - 1:50.1
Wade best time - 1:55.1


April 2012 at TWS

Wade best time - 2:01.9
Jordan best time - 2:01.2


June 2012 at Hallett

Mosty best time - 1:28.4
Rueth best time - 1:31.0
Wade best time - 1:33.0

Race 1 only, best laptimes are shown and the order of the drivers is the finishing order and by class and platform from three or four of the drivers I know
So and as many variables have been removed as possible for this slice of the pie.

Do you see a pattern?

There has to be parity amongst the same platform, right?
So why is there such a difference in laptimes?
Has to be the experience level of the driver.

You know as well as any one, DEs and AX in no way prepares you for the racing experience.
It was eye opening for me and you have expressed the same sentiment.
Its all about seat time.

Mosty has more seat time than any one else simply because of his relationship at MSR-C and the 7 years of experience he has under his belt.
He didn't get fast over night.

And you, Jerry, split your seat time with Jay.
I think that's fantastic and would have lover that opportunity with my dad.
But you do get 1/2 the experience per weekend than any one else.

Wade, you have come so far, dude. The last time you and I raced I could keep up, but only a slight bobble on your part allowed me to get around.
Don't be discouraged.


So to answer your question, Jerry

Maybe the Mustang is the best and all Mustang drivers suck

If going simply by laptimes, there isn't even parity amongst the Mustangs when assuming all drivers are the same.

I know it crawls all over you to pay $200 for a part that will fail ... it will fail.
But the Mustang doesn't have the market cornered there.

Ask any 4th gen guy about the front hubs.

[ShadowBolt]

I'm waiting for a big print job to finish so ...

Jerry,

Take the blinders off and look at the situation from a different persoective.
Remove the camaro from the equation altogether.
Are you running the same lap times as all other Mustangs?

Data from My Laps:

January 2012 at MSR-H

Mosty best time - 1:46.5
Gunter best time - 1:50.1
Jordan best time - 1:49.5
Wade best time - 1:55.1


March 2012 at MSR-C

Mosty best time - 1:46:5
Jordan best time - 1:49.5
Gunter best time - 1:50.1
Wade best time - 1:55.1


April 2012 at TWS

Wade best time - 2:01.9
Jordan best time - 2:01.2


June 2012 at Hallett

Mosty best time - 1:28.4
Rueth best time - 1:31.0
Wade best time - 1:33.0

Race 1 only, best laptimes are shown and the order of the drivers is the finishing order and by class and platform from three or four of the drivers I know
So and as many variables have been removed as possible for this slice of the pie.

Do you see a pattern?

There has to be parity amongst the same platform, right?
So why is there such a difference in laptimes?
Has to be the experience level of the driver.

You know as well as any one, DEs and AX in no way prepares you for the racing experience.
It was eye opening for me and you have expressed the same sentiment.
Its all about seat time.

Mosty has more seat time than any one else simply because of his relationship at MSR-C and the 7 years of experience he has under his belt.
He didn't get fast over night.

And you, Jerry, split your seat time with Jay.
I think that's fantastic and would have lover that opportunity with my dad.
But you do get 1/2 the experience per weekend than any one else.

Wade, you have come so far, dude. The last time you and I raced I could keep up, but only a slight bobble on your part allowed me to get around.
Don't be discouraged.


So to answer your question, Jerry



If going simply by laptimes, there isn't even parity amongst the Mustangs when assuming all drivers are the same.

I know it crawls all over you to pay $200 for a part that will fail ... it will fail.
But the Mustang doesn't have the market cornered there.

Ask any 4th gen guy about the front hubs.

Thanks for the info Mitch but you are totally missing my point. I know where I am speed wise in the Texas CMC Mustang world (and the whole Texas CMC world). This is not about the 55 should be in the front. I know who in a Mustang is better than I am but I don't know about the Camaros. Obviously several are faster than I am but is the Mustang platform holding me back some.......any? Is it holding Michael and Wade back? If Michael drove your car for a season would he be winning every race or would it be about the same? Al was going to trade cars with Boudy (did not work out but it could have been an eye opener).

This is not aboout the 55 or who can beat me or who I can outrun. I know my limitations and what it would take to get to the front and I am not willing to spend the time it takes to get there. This is a question of parity. I guess I'm stupid but I don't fully understand why the Mustang would be a better car than the Camaro if it was running the same parts as the Camaro runs? This has been the question all along. This is not end of the world stuff just stuff I wonder about sometimes.


JJ

[ShadowBolt]

Even in this pile of $hit Mustang I'm going to kick the 24's ass in Oct. See, I set my goals low.

JJ

[mitchntx]

Thanks for the info Mitch but you are totally missing my point. I know where I am speed wise in the Texas CMC Mustang world (and the whole Texas CMC world). This is not about the 55 should be in the front. I know who in a Mustang is better than I am but I don't know about the Camaros. Obviously several are faster than I am but is the Mustang platform holding me back some.......any? Is it holding Michael and Wade back? If Michael drove your car for a season would he be winning every race or would it be about the same? Al was going to trade cars with Boudy (did not work out but it could have been an eye opener).

This is not aboout the 55 or who can beat me or who I can outrun. I know my limitations and what it would take to get to the front and I am not willing to spend the time it takes to get there. This is a question of parity. I guess I'm stupid but I don't fully understand why the Mustang would be a better car than the Camaro if it was running the same parts as the Camaro runs? This has been the question all along. This is not end of the world stuff just stuff I wonder about sometimes.


JJ

Jerry, I really do think I understand ... you want to know what the change would be with a torque arm in a Mustang. Slower? Faster? the same?
You are right ... we don't know. But a maxim MS TA kit is hardly a like for like comparison to a factory GM unit. Therefore, it's an unaswereable question.

And the original point was about what can be done to stop the self destruction of the race car.
In the GM world, the similar self-destruction is along the trans mount. Its ripping all the spot welds out.
Self-destruction is part of the cost of going racing, from where I sit. You guys suffer from it and so do I.
Only solution is to go back and repair it.

And then the tangent about parity found its way into this convo. And it all centers on lap times.
The question hidden in all of this is parity discussion is with whom?
Parity with your car and Proctor's?
Mine and Michael's?
Wade's and Allford's?

The data above shows a WIDE variance in the same platform. I could post similar numbers on the Camaro side.
Rules relaxation in the name of parity HAS to remove the driver from the equation. Why? That's the biggest variable.

So that leads us full circle again to a question that just isn't answerable.

Is it fair to me as a mid-pack slacker for a potential advantage in lap times to Michael?
Is it fair to give you an advantage in order to keep up with Proctor?
What would that do to Michael's lap times?
The problem is, no one knows if there is an advantage or not.

You would be just as pissed off if the TA kit was allowed today, an advantage seen and the kit deemed illegal.
Remember how pissed folks were who had a stack of 888s?

Bottom line ... If a racer wants to 1) race, 2) be competitive and 3) not tear anything up.
Pick two and be call it good.

[ShadowBolt]

Jerry, I really do think I understand ... you want to know what the change would be with a torque arm in a Mustang. Slower? Faster? the same?
You are right ... we don't know. But a maxim MS TA kit is hardly a like for like comparison to a factory GM unit. Therefore, it's an unaswereable question.

And the original point was about what can be done to stop the self destruction of the race car.
In the GM world, the similar self-destruction is along the trans mount. Its ripping all the spot welds out.
Self-destruction is part of the cost of going racing, from where I sit. You guys suffer from it and so do I.
Only solution is to go back and repair it.

And then the tangent about parity found its way into this convo. And it all centers on lap times.
The question hidden in all of this is parity discussion is with whom?
Parity with your car and Proctor's?
Mine and Michael's?
Wade's and Allford's?

The data above shows a WIDE variance in the same platform. I could post similar numbers on the Camaro side.
Rules relaxation in the name of parity HAS to remove the driver from the equation. Why? That's the biggest variable.

So that leads us full circle again to a question that just isn't answerable.

Is it fair to me as a mid-pack slacker for a potential advantage in lap times to Michael?
Is it fair to give you an advantage in order to keep up with Proctor?
What would that do to Michael's lap times?
The problem is, no one knows if there is an advantage or not.

You would be just as pissed off if the TA kit was allowed today, an advantage seen and the kit deemed illegal.
Remember how pissed folks were who had a stack of 888s?

Bottom line ... If a racer wants to 1) race, 2) be competitive and 3) not tear anything up.
Pick two and be call it good.

"So that leads us full circle again to a question that just isn't answerable."

I love ya Mitch but I do not agree with this part. It think it's possible to find out. I understand (now) about the differences in t/a's on the two platforms. I think we would know by now if Glenn had driven Boudy's car or if Al had traded for it. I don't blame Glenn for not doing it since he had nothing to gain and everything to lose. If at the end of the year he was not running up front or at least close to his old lap times..........or if he was as fast or faster than in previous years we would have learned a bunch. My real guess is the Mustang would be no faster adding a torque arm and I would still be a midpack slacker! Sorry I kept this one going so long. At least there was something to read on here for a few days.

I finished with this thread now since we will not figure it out here. IMHO the S197 is going to screw up CMC way past this issue. I thought we kept it civil. I'm going to miss you at the track Mitch!

When can we go racing?

JJ

[michaelmosty]

"So that leads us full circle again to a question that just isn't answerable."

I thought we kept it civil. I'm going to miss you at the track Mitch!

When can we go racing?

JJ

Agreed Jerry!!!
There was never a single time I was pissed, offended, or upset with the discussion. I think it is great to be able to hear everyone's opinions and understand the reasoning behind the individual views. It just means better education and understanding for all.

On a side note, the Jerry / Leinart smack talk is freakin great!!! :^)

[GlennCMC70]

Mitch - Golf clap....... Nice POV.
Parity...... Something we all want. How close is it between platforms? It is closer between platforms of top drivers in the series than it is between top drivers in the series of a single platform. Of the number of 4th gens, how many are top performers percentage wise? Same for 3rd gens? Fox's? SN-95's?


S-197's...... Man I wish this car would just go away.

[BlueFirePony]

S-197's...... Man I wish this car would just go away.

Consider it done. Kyri and I will run DE and maybe TT when we return in October.

[GlennCMC70]

Consider it done. Kyri and I will run DE and maybe TT when we return in October.

Not sure why you didn't take this w/ regards to CMC, but do what you must. Were you considering moving down from AI?

[rpoz27]

Mitch - Golf clap....... Nice POV.
Parity...... Something we all want. How close is it between platforms? It is closer between platforms of top drivers in the series than it is between top drivers in the series of a single platform. Of the number of 4th gens, how many are top performers percentage wise? Same for 3rd gens? Fox's? SN-95's?


S-197's...... Man I wish this car would just go away.

you guys are funny.....you should try owning BOTH a Camaro and a Mustang. You start to have these type of conversations with yourself.